Low Down Sound Club: V2

[walterw]

my LDS club membership is in the mail! (actually, it'll be shipped out as soon as don gets back from wherever.) i ordered two compact 1x15" cabs (super compact, like 18" high) with no tweeters or anything, that i'm going to stack for an easy-to-move old school rock rig.

oh, and i've been using turbo-tuners for a couple of years now on everything from bass to lap steel, and by comparison, other tuners just feel slow and stupid.

 

[Blues Cat]

A couple of live shots in tilt back mode.

 

[agfrag]

WalterW, hereby you are granted number 22 of the LDS club, welcome aboard

And ,

...i ordered two compact 1x15" cabs (super compact, like 18" high) with no tweeters or anything...

Just so happens I'm in the market for the same thing, due to the style of music I've been playing lately. Could you perhaps give me some details on your 15" cabs?

Like what kinda speaker, dimensions, wattage, ported, not ported, etc.

I'd be ever so grateful!

 

[::::BASSIST::::]

Well since the fEarful 15/6 is just too big for me at this point, I've decided to go with another pair of 112s. I also like that I can just keep my LMII with the 4 ohm load of the 112 stack. I was considering a pair of fEarful 12/6s but 1) I dont think I need the midrange driver or tweeter for the tone I like. 2) I am trying to keep these cabs at no more than 30LBS each.

I still have my UL112s and still like them, but I guess I am just trying to tweak my rig a little more to get it "perfect". Mainly I want more punchy yet deep low-end and I want to move away from carpet covered cabs. Actually I really like the tone of the epifani PS112s but at 37+ pounds they are a tad heavier than I want.

For the LDS 112 this is what I've come up so far:

Eminence 3012LF
16"h x 21"w x 16"d
shelf-porting
top strap handle
chocolate brown tolex
8 ohms
30LBS (or less)

Not sure about the low hz. Thinking 40hz - 45hz (suggestions?)

I just want to get some opinions on this design before I start bugging Don about it.

Thoughts?

 

[KJung]

Well since the fEarful 15/6 is just too big for me at this point, I've decided to go with another pair of 112s. I also like that I can just keep my LMII with the 4 ohm load of the 112 stack. I was considering a pair of fEarful 12/6s but 1) I dont think I need the midrange driver or tweeter for the tone I like. 2) I am trying to keep these cabs at no more than 30LBS each.

I still have my UL112s and still like them, but I guess I am just trying to tweak my rig a little more to get it "perfect". Mainly I want more punchy yet deep low-end and I want to move away from carpet covered cabs. Actually I really like the tone of the epifani PS112s but at 37+ pounds they are a tad heavier than I want.

For the LDS 112 this is what I've come up so far:

Eminence 3012LF
16"h x 21"w x 16"d
shelf-porting
top strap handle
chocolate brown tolex
8 ohms
30LBS (or less)

Not sure about the low hz. Thinking 40hz - 45hz (suggestions?)

I just want to get some opinions on this design before I start bugging Don about it.

Thoughts?

From what I understand, if you use the LF versions, you need that mid driver. Tuning the low end is almost 'by definition' depending on the driver you use. If you don't need a tweeter, and dig the more vintage, punchy tone of the PS Epi's, you should check out the one way 3015 (I have a clip up of that somewhere on this thread... smokin' punchy cab).

If you are looking for deeper low end and smoother highs, man, I'd replicate the wonderful two way cab that Don built for TBer Deb... one of the smoothest 112's I've ever heard, and nice and lightweight (I also have pictures and a clip of that cab on this thread.


On another note, Don has a unique cab that is completed but held up due to a rather unique tolex requirement that is on backorder. It is a 215/6 cab I believe, with some 'interesting' design features. Stay tuned. I'll have a picture and clip up before is ships in a week or two (depending on the Tolex backorder... Don is really pissed about that).


IMO!

 

[silky smoove]

It's looking like Don will be starting my cabs on Monday if his initial schedule projections were accurate. Super stoked....

 

[KJung]

It's looking like Don will be starting my cabs on Monday if his initial schedule projections were accurate. Super stoked....

Cool. What do you have coming? I forgot.

 

[silky smoove]

Cool. What do you have coming? I forgot.

15/6/1 with a 3015, 6ND410 and a tweeter that's yet to be selected. Don's having Ralf do a high pass filter at the bottom end of the 3015 around 33hz if I'm not mistaken, crossing the mid over at 1.2khz, and I can't remember how high he's taking the mid driver before crossing over to the tweeter. Separate L-Pads for the mid and tweeter if he can make it work, otherwise we'll be discussing how much padding to put on the mid driver and just doing an L-Pad on the tweeter.

15sub with a 3015. I'm not sure how he's going to do this one, but it will essentially be high passed at 33hz and low passed such that it will truly act like a "bottom" and not get so high that the upper mids can get nasty. A lot of reports I've read on the 3015 say that the upper mids from this speaker can get pretty ugly if they're not handled.

Both cabs will have metal grills and spray-on bedliner finish. Should be able to level buildings when I get both of them running together Although, more often than not I'll just be running the 15/6/1. Make sure you go over and play on the stack before he ships it out so you can torment me with positive reviews to read while I'm waiting for the shipment to arrive

 

[rpsands]

Man, that high pass is going to take a really expensive component to do right if I'm not mistaken. If that component is cheap I'd expect it could seriously impact your power handling.

It'd be a lot sturdier to just run it at the start of your signal chain or between pre/power

 

[KJung]

Man, that high pass is going to take a really expensive component to do right if I'm not mistaken. If that component is cheap I'd expect it could seriously impact your power handling.

It'd be a lot sturdier to just run it at the start of your signal chain or between pre/power

I remember this now. Since the 3015LF in the 'no mid driver cab' doesn't have a crossover, it needs some sort of 'thing' to cut it off at 800hz.

You know, I'd probably just put another 18sound in the bottom cab with the same crossover (800hz seems to be the 'best' crossover point for these), and design it so that the two mid drivers are right next to each other when stacked.

That might be easier than trying to do something 'new and fancy' and as long as you have the attenuator on the mid driver, it will be easy to get the sound balanced. He would only need the tweeter in one of the cabs, which would save some money.

This is over my head though, but one thing I know is that being the 'first' with trying something like this (i.e., the hi pass) can be very cool, or very NOT cool, depending on how it works out

 

[rpsands]

Given the cost difference between a 15sub and a 15/6/1 (something like 150 bucks or so for Don) I would agree 100% that getting a duplicate cab is the way to go.

For a private builder, the 18 sound + crossover + horn could easily set you back another 250 or more.

What I was talking about was not the extra 800hz crossover in the SUB cab, though. It sounds like from the description they are putting a cap or something on the woofer to high pass it @ 33hz as an over-excursion filter.

Typically, that is a lot more expensive to do with high powered signals than it is to do in the line level situation between a pre/power amp.

I would recommend the OP sell his 1804 and get an updated power amp, rather than waste components on high passing the woofer. I am not sure but there has to be a reason why no one else does that.

 

[greenboy]

Ever wonder why you never see any smart companies using speaker-level woofer high-pass?

Passive high-pass is a bust when you get drivers this capable. It throws away useful content in the passband if attempting to stay practical in terms of component count, weight, and cost. It also fails to rejects enough output below the tuning frequency to allow one to really take that driver as far as it is capable of going. Passive high-pass makes for a clumsy reactive load too, which some amps aren't going to like so well.

The cheapest active solution worth even looking at, 3rd order Butterworth, is scads better. And it's not even tough to get active 4th-order BW or higher these days anyway.

Setting aside any disagreements about crossover response ON-AXIS, crossing a 15 over so high when a perfectly incredible mid driver is part of the system, is foolish. Much of the reason of having a mid driver is to have smoother extended OFF-AXIS response which in turn helps minimize room interaction problems in the midband. Let it take over where the 15 is losing the plot which in this case is nearly an octave below 1200 Hz.

 

[KJung]

Ever wonder why you never see any smart companies using speaker-level woofer high-pass?

Passive high-pass is a bust when you get drivers this capable. It throws away useful content in the passband if attempting to stay practical in terms of component count, weight, and cost. It also fails to rejects enough output below the tuning frequency to allow one to really take that driver as far as it is capable of going. Passive high-pass makes for a clumsy reactive load too, which some amps aren't going to like so well.

The cheapest active solution worth even looking at, 3rd order Butterworth, is scads better. And it's not even tough to get active 4th-order BW or higher these days anyway.

Setting aside any disagreements about crossover response ON-AXIS, crossing a 15 over so high when a perfectly incredible mid driver is part of the system, is foolish. Much of the reason of having a mid driver is to have smoother extended OFF-AXIS response which in turn helps minimize room interaction problems in the midband. Let it take over where the 15 is losing the plot which in this case is nearly an octave below 1200 Hz.

Again, over my head, but the specs posted did not seem like a good idea from the little I know about it. I assume that's why he posted up for comments.

I would think having two identical cabs (with the mid drivers positioned in an 'under over' configuration when stacked, crossed over at the 800hz thing) would be the way to go with this to guarantee a good result.

IMO though.... over my head... I'm still playing a 410 with an itsy bitsy tweeter

 

[KJung]

Given the cost difference between a 15sub and a 15/6/1 (something like 150 bucks or so for Don) I would agree 100% that getting a duplicate cab is the way to go.

For a private builder, the 18 sound + crossover + horn could easily set you back another 250 or more.

What I was talking about was not the extra 800hz crossover in the SUB cab, though. It sounds like from the description they are putting a cap or something on the woofer to high pass it @ 33hz as an over-excursion filter.

Typically, that is a lot more expensive to do with high powered signals than it is to do in the line level situation between a pre/power amp.

I would recommend the OP sell his 1804 and get an updated power amp, rather than waste components on high passing the woofer. I am not sure but there has to be a reason why no one else does that.

I could have this wrong, but I think it has to do with controlling the top end of that driver versus a 'rumble filter', which surely isn't needed with these cabs from what I've heard.

Again.... I need to just shut up, since I am WAY over my head. I would just think that two 15/6's, one with a tweeter, crossed over at the optimum would be a 'guaranteed whoopass'.

 

[rpsands]

Silky's going with an 800hz crossover, if I had to guess it's the one Ralf designed (3rd order both directions, or 2nd/3rd, not sure which), so no worries on the 1200hz count. Still not necessarily perfectly ideal but better than 1200.

The concern I really want to bring out is the woofer speaker-level high pass. That sounds like a very bad idea to me. Be sure you look into that man.

 

[rpsands]

I could have this wrong, but I think it has to do with controlling the top end of that driver versus a 'rumble filter', which surely isn't needed with these cabs from what I've heard.

Again.... I need to just shut up, since I am WAY over my head. I would just think that two 15/6's, one with a tweeter, crossed over at the optimum would be a 'guaranteed whoopass'.

Controlling the top end of the driver is the 800hz low pass.

Silk was saying the woofer would "essentially be high passed at 33hz" which is a rumble filter.

That is almost surely an idea ranging from wasteful to down right bad for performance, based on what I know.

The low pass at 800ish on the second cab is fine and a great idea

 

[deb]

+1 You need to have a mid-driver with the 3012LF.

My LDS cab came in at about 36 lbs. I've got an Eminence 3012LF and Faital mid driver, tolex, and minimal hardware.

A couple of ideas ... The Eminence 3012HO driver could probably go in a smaller box and save a bit more weight--you won't need a mid. Not sure about tone though. You could also get a 12/6 fEarful design and get a 12sub instead of a full 12/6. That'll save some space and weight.

You can also call Don and tell him what weight, power, sound you're looking for. He's got a ton of experience and great ears and could probably come up with something original that mortals, such as I, wouldn't think of.

deb

Well since the fEarful 15/6 is just too big for me at this point, I've decided to go with another pair of 112s. I also like that I can just keep my LMII with the 4 ohm load of the 112 stack. I was considering a pair of fEarful 12/6s but 1) I dont think I need the midrange driver or tweeter for the tone I like. 2) I am trying to keep these cabs at no more than 30LBS each.

I still have my UL112s and still like them, but I guess I am just trying to tweak my rig a little more to get it "perfect". Mainly I want more punchy yet deep low-end and I want to move away from carpet covered cabs. Actually I really like the tone of the epifani PS112s but at 37+ pounds they are a tad heavier than I want.

For the LDS 112 this is what I've come up so far:

Eminence 3012LF
16"h x 21"w x 16"d
shelf-porting
top strap handle
chocolate brown tolex
8 ohms
30LBS (or less)

Not sure about the low hz. Thinking 40hz - 45hz (suggestions?)

I just want to get some opinions on this design before I start bugging Don about it.

Thoughts?

 

[silky smoove]

Wow, I step away from my desk for a little bit and this thing has spun out of control!

These conceptual ideas all stem from conversations here on TB and with Don. Nothing is set in stone at this point, so any additional input is much appreciated. Keep in mind that cabinet design is not my strong point... Not by a long shot, haha.

The high pass was an idea that I asked Don about a while back. That would allow me to power this using an 1804, thereby saving some rack weight and depth. I'll have to dig through my emails again, but as I recall, Don's response was very positive to this. You guys know more about this than I do, so flat-out, would I be better off just sticking with something like an 1802 and keeping all of the "rumble filtering" at the pre/power stage? I don't own a power amp yet, so switching up what I'm going to buy won't be a big deal at all. I exclusively play 4-string basses, and the lowest tuning I ever use is drop D, but more often than not am in standard tuning. Will I really benefit from something that's filtering so far below the fundamental of my lowest string? If I won't actually see any benefit from this I'll be smiling because I could effectively get by with a simpler cabinet and an 1804 rather than an 1802 or similar.

The crossover will be one of Ralf's. He has two designs according to Don, one at 800hz and one at either 1.2khz or 1.3khz, I can't remember without going back to my emails. After reading what seems like a thousand posts regarding Ralf's crossovers, it would seem that the preferred version is the higher of the two (again, 1.2 or 1.3). Did I miss something? Is 800hz the ideal crossover point for this type of design?

Regarding the low pass on the sub cab: It seems like rpsands would suggest low passing at 800hz'ish, whereas KJung would suggest making the bottom cab a 15/6 such that the midrange drivers were next to each other when stacked. I greatly value both of your opinions, but these are at opposite ends of the spectrum, so I'm a bit at a loss. The only part of it that seems counterintuitive is Ken's suggestion to have midranges line up next to each other when stacked (no offense intended Ken, just confusion on my end). If the midranges lined up, that would mean you'd need to have the midrange in the top cab on the bottom. Don't mirange drivers and tweeters function better when they're up as high as possible? The closer to your ear the better? Wouldn't this defeat that benefit?

Thanks for the help guys!

 

[rpsands]

800hz is a lot better than 1200 or 1300, even with Ralf's zobel, IMHO.

My cab uses a closer to 700hz crossover, and IIRC, it was slightly preferred over the 1200hz crossover, by the ears that heard it. That's a vague recollection though.

I would absolutely use another power amp. A bridged XTI 1000 (or the new XLS model, perhaps) would be a great bet, or an 1802 if you have one already is fine. The 1804 is not a great choice for a bass player IMHO without either a very high quality preamp or a DSP solution (BBE DS24 is an affordable bet) - or some other means of shelving the ultra lows.

I would recommend one of two things (with the mids aligned)
1) 15/6/1 + 15/6
2) 15/6 + 12/6/1 (or a horn on both

The 15 sub is a sucker's bet from LDS, in my opinion. You just don't save enough to make it worth it, in size/weight/cost. For another 150 or so you can have a whole fully functional cabinet. Why not?

If you do go with a 15" sub, I would recommend a crossover on it, but from LDS I don't think it's a good idea.


Edit: To put in the best suggestion yet:
Buy a single 15/6 and see how it works out. If it's not enough for almost everyone I'd be shocked. After you've moved it around for a while you'll have a better idea of whether you want a 12/6 or a 15/6 or a 15 sub to carry in addition.

 

[silky smoove]

Good advice rpsands, I do truly appreciate it. Fortunately Don hasn't started building anything yet, and he's going to call me before starting construction.

I don't own a power amp yet, so I can just buy something different if it would suit my needs better. I'm a big fan of QSC products, so my intent was to go with an 1804, but it's sounding like an 1802 might be smarter. The Crown XTI/XLS stuff looks very impressive, but all of the programmable DSP stuff looks pretty intimidating. I've not dug very deep into it, but is the software end of it more of a "set it and forget it" affair, or is it a "bring your laptop to every gig" type thing. If it's the latter I won't be interested at all.

EDIT: Can you comment on my post above about lining up the midrange drivers next to each other, which if I'm not mistaken, would mean putting the midrange driver at the bottom of the top cab and the top of the bottom cab. Does the tweeter move to the bottom of the top cab as well, or do you split them?