Making Female Singer Feel Safer

[whero]

@Plucky The Bassist : It's a shame that your perfectly reasonable request for advice went downhill so fast.

I don't presume to speak for any group of people whose gender, sexual orientation, political beliefs, etc. I don't share, so these are just the thoughts of an old, white, male, married, mountain biking, government policy writing, New Zealand bass player, and I'll try to keep them on topic.

• I think it's commendable that you're thinking about making any potential new band member's experience positive and safe, and I'd feel that way even if you were looking for a male vocalist.
• On this side of the world, we only tend to hear about Craigslist when things go bad so, based solely on this biased reporting, my opinion of it isn't high. I accept that this may be totally unfair. But have you looked at any other options, e.g. a reputable local newspaper or music magazine, or putting a poster up in a rehearsal space? One of the music store chains in New Zealand has a section on their website where musicians can find each other. Just sayin'... there might be other (more professional looking) choices.
• I agree with others who have suggested meeting in a public place first, e.g. for coffee. For me, this has nothing do to with safety, although I accept that's part of it for many people. It's because you might be able to tell quite a lot about a person in that first meeting. Does their musical style, level of commitment, ambition, availability, image, personality, etc. match the direction the band wants to go? You might be able to rule out a number of applicants after 30 minutes in a cafe and save yourselves many hours of actual audition time.
• Invite anybody who passes the coffee test to audition at a public place; a bar or club before they open to the public, hall, church, rehearsal space, whatever you can find and/or afford. If you can do that during daylight hours rather than late at night, which might mean doing it on a weekend, that will help.
• Tell them you're happy for them to bring someone along. You don't have to say anything about safety, or mention "husband" or "boyfriend" - it can sound like you're trying to find out whether they have one, which is a bit creepy. Let them decide for themselves whether they want a bodyguard, or a supporter, or are happy to come on their own.
• Let them know you're going to record the audition (video or just audio, whatever you can manage) and that they can have a copy of the recording. It will be valuable from a musical perspective if you need to look back to choose between two or more candidates, but it might also give them some assurance that eveything is professional and above board. And it may make them feel more comfortable, and give you some security from false allegations.

I don't think you can do much more than that, and most people would do a lot less.

 

[electracoyote]

Tell them you're happy for them to bring someone along. You don't have to say anything about safety, or mention "husband" or "boyfriend" - it can sound like you're trying to find out whether they have one, which is a bit creepy. Let them decide for themselves whether they want a bodyguard, or a supporter, or are happy to come on their own.

This point reminded me of one audition in particular:

For starters, as you said, we don't specify or suggest who an audition candidate should or could bring along, or even if they should or shouldn't. We don't imply that it's a good idea or try to otherwise spook anyone. We merely make a polite offer that it's fine to bring a companion. Adults are smart enough to figure out that you are only being polite with no further insinuations.

And, FWIW, we make this offer for male and female audition candidates alike. Some people just feel a little more confidence and support with a known entity in the room. Some people need help with gear. Whatever, no further implications, it's a simple polite offer, take it or leave it.

But to my story, we once had a female audition candidate show up with her husband in tow. If you know where this is going, hats off to you and your experience. Sure enough, he was very hands-on and injected himself into the mix heavily, had special (even unreasonable) conditions and requests for the candidate, and went far beyond that into critiques and suggestions for the whole band, control of the mixer, on and on, basically micro-managing the session.

She was a good singer, but needless to say, she was not selected.

 

[john_g]

I've been in a lot of female-fronted bands. When auditioning, it's always been done at a known respected facility with staff (shows the band is serious) so a reasonable person would feel perfectly safe being there.

Even if you have a rehearsal space, rent a public one for auditions. No sense having every flake "singer"/guitarist/whatever in the city, or their klepto-addict friends, knowing where you keep all your gear.

Which brings me to ...

Singer brings a friend/husband. Simple. Even if it is a public facility.

Consider insisting on it for the protection and comfort of both sides, if you think about it.

This. Tell her to bring someone along with her.

 

[bass183]

**EDIT**
This thread has actually done like a good compressor and squashed the transient before things started clipping...please continue the trend of progressing towards civil discussion and read all replies before posting on something you feel is inflammatory, the user may have apologized or addressed it already.


OK to give a little background, I just auditioned (and nailed it, beating out 4 other applicants) for a local grunge/alternative band. The drummer is sort of the band leader, he was in another group for 7 years and even got to open for Puddle of Mudd before. He's a level-headed guy and isn't ignorant to how things work, is the point I'm trying to get across.

So we're taking a beverage break after playing a few tunes and the BL was telling me he feels really strongly about getting a female vocalist. No complaints from me, I've actually wanted to try that in previous bands myself. He and the guitarist are very down-to-Earth kind of guys though, and while I wouldn't say naive, I would say they are good-natured people. As we're talking about the audition process, I brought up the point of whether or not a female vocalist would feel meeting with a bunch of strange guys from Craigslist all alone is a safe idea.

BL definitely took that concern as valid, but was coming up dry on ways to try and mitigate this possible issue. He suggested having his female neighbor come over and chill in the house too, but I am unsure how well that would work as getting a private rehearsal space (we're in his older brother's house at the moment) means that coming every week might not pan out for the neighbor. He'd also like a keyboard player that's female, but that could severely limit our options if that becomes a necessity.

Anybody gone through this same scenario and found something that worked? Obviously things can happen at any time and place, but I'd like to make sure we limit how uncomfortable things feel as much as possible.

I am a female musician who has auditioned many times with all male bands since my teens. I am 45 now. I've been playing in bands since the late 1980s. And I have gone on national and international tours with all male bands.

Just out of curiosity, do you think that women aren't capable of taking care of themselves? I think your concern is one of well intent, but sometimes "the road to hell is paved with good intentions." Don't overthink the process. If a woman wants to audition for an all male band, she will make that choice. Most likely, she has played in dozens of bands with men depending on the age group you all are.

I realize that there is a lot in the media about sexual assault right now. Rightly so. Sexual assault is nothing new and women have been dealing with it for centuries. If it makes you feel better, rent a rehearsal room to hold the auditions. Don't worry about the woman. She will take care of herself. She has probably already had enough encounters with creepy dudes or possibly been sexually harrassed or assaulted to know what is safe for her and what is not. For all you know, she might hold a black belt in martial arts and could take all of you down with one kick.

Just put that add in craigslist and ask around your music & friends circle to find out if anyone knows of a talented singer that would fit what you are looking for. Fyi, you will probably have far more luck finding a singer via word of mouth than through craigslist. Good luck!

 

[bass183]

Yup. THIS. Well said.

It's 2018. Let her figure out how to feel safe. Worry about your own safety.

As a woman and as a musician, I have to say I agree with this.

 

[FugaziBomb]

Ask her to help you move a couch into a van. "Would ya?"

 

[Mister Boh]

That's not really how those statistics work 40.

Most sexual violence happens to women. It's not hard to imagine that women would feel uncomfortable meeting a group of strange men in a private setting from an arrangement on Craigslist.

Taking steps to make a meeting place feel less creepy will probably get you more applicants.

 

[AdamR]

Perhaps just ask them what you could do to make them feel comfortable. Maybe suggest they bring a Male friend with them

 

[elgranluis]

I’d guess she would bring some friends with her for the audition.

 

[2112]

Even if you have a rehearsal space, rent a public one for auditions. No sense having every flake "singer"/guitarist/whatever in the city, or their klepto-addict friends, knowing where you keep all your gear.

</thread>

 

[buldog5151bass]

I've been in many bands with females - never been an issue. Maybe no beer at audition? Other than that, just act professional.

 

[Old Garage-Bander]

When the old garage band was looking to fill an empty slot we weren’t even thinking in terms of female, or vocalist.
We lost a guitar player and that’s where we were headed. But a female keyboard player happened to ask for a tryout. It turned out that she brought a whole different musical spin to our normal routine. So you never really know for sure how these things turn out.
Unless you have or want to move into a song list that is, or can be predominantly female oriented, perhaps your CL ad would best serve the band by being open to anyone. You never know who might show up and surprise you.

Good luck with your search.

 

[StayLow]

You don’t. But statistical odds in and of itself does not determine certainty the way you seem to be interpreting it.

Your chances of hitting heads on a coun toss are exactly 50-50. But if you toss a coin ten times it doesn’t mean you will get 5 heads and 5 tails every single time. The larger the sample size, the more accurate - in aggregate - the statistical odds become. But even then there are mathematical measures of likelihood that address the relative degrees uncertainty you’ll encounter in the real world.

You’re statistically more likely to die in your sleep than you are to die by jumping off a bridge. So following the flawed logic of assuming probabilities alone establish certainties, you’re far “safer” jumping off a bridge and never sleeping.

The probability of me meeting a ghastly end approaches 100% if I’m put in a confined space with a starving lion. But what is the likelihood of me being in such a situation? So my probabilty of meeting my end at the paws of a lion now drops down to virtually zero.

In order to have a statistically probable risk of 1 in 5 of being raped, the number of men who are rapists would need to approach 100% - therefor ALL men are rapists.

Is that what you’re saying?

Great post, but perhaps too subtle for those who wouldn't already challenge such obviously ridiculous statistics.

I checked the link. They define rape as "including attempted forced penetration or alcohol/drug facilitated completed penetration".

Oh, and "more than half of female victims of rape reported being raped by an intimate partner."

Basically anyone who wasn't totally in the mood with their partner before or during sex, or who had a couple drinks first or regretted it all afterward? Who knows.

It gets murkier. Part of the data was obtained via self-reporting via supposedly random telephone survey, with the rest coming from in-person interviews of supposedly random people. Who takes anything counted via random telephone survey seriously, much less about something so serious? Recall the polling before the last U.S. election?

For the interviews, they omitted results from the ones with higher than a 30% (thirty percent, not a typo) "measure of estimated reliability". Not exactly a high standard it seems to me.

No idea on a cursory read of this propaganda why reliability is being "estimated" and whether the people "raped" even bothered to say "no" or at least "maybe later, honey". It might skew the stats considerably.

Stuff like this, and allowing it to be repeated uncontested, does a gross disservice to the many real victims out there - women AND men.

Even if someone is credulous enough to accept the data without question, the stats are halved just by eliminating an "intimate partner" from the equation. They're probably decimated by staying sober.

If we, like reasonable people and the several definitions I just consulted, define "rape" as including some form of sexual intercourse or penetration rather than "attempted" (which may be assault, granted), then the stats are dropped to .... ??

We'll never know from flawed studies with high tolerance for error and dubious definitions of what they're purporting to study.

I have no doubt the real stats are tragic without blowing them totally out of proprotion, and from the outset I've been a proponent of prudence for the protection of parties on both sides. However being unnecessarily terrified by highly suspect stats won't help in auditioning or in life, I respectfully suggest.

Remember that 47.863% of all stats are fabricated, and some surveys show that online stats are as high as 96.482% false.

A bit of attemtped levity to end, though it doesn't strike me as unreasonble to accept *those* stats as accurate. Conservative perhaps, and back on topic ... it's always best to err on the side of reasonable caution.

 

[birminghambass]

You need to arrange a meeting at your local police station. Also, nobody make eye contact with her. When she feels it's safe enough, everyone introduce yourself. Do this once a week for 6 months. Eventually you'll all be comfortable enough to meet somewhere else where you can play music together. Maybe.

But seriously, I've been in several bands with women. They would all laugh at some of these suggestions.

 

[pcake]

i'm a female singer / bass player / guitarist, and most of the bands i played in were all guys and me. i admit i never worried about what might happen, and in some situations i probably should have. i would have felt weirded out if someone told me i could bring someone or told me anything for my "comfort". i'd say audition at a public rehearsal space and you should be fine. and not one that looks like it's been closed for years and looks like it's haunted or a group of punks in an post apocalypse world lives in it

t's true that some women might be nervous, and sometimes things do happen to us, but consider this - you may be playing at bars or other venues where guys will hit on them or make rude remarks. do you want a singer who is intimidated in that situation?

 

[KevInDaBassment]

Just out of curiosity, do you think that women aren't capable of taking care of themselves? I think your concern is one of well intent, but sometimes "the road to hell is paved with good intentions."

Not at all (as I said in prior replies). The whole point of me asking is because I am a guy, so obviously I have zero experience or knowledge of what it's like being a female going to a music audition with nothing but strange men alone. Since this came to my mind as a possible concern, I felt it prudent to reach out here and see if people could offer some insight or what their experience was. We had a female from our community say that it is a concern for her, a few guys asked their SO's who said they would be uneasy, and you have replied (which I appreciate) saying it's no big deal for you.

Quite honestly I hope it isn't a big deal for applicants to audition with us and I believe there is a good chance it won't be one, but to give you a question in return, what exactly is at stake by doing what I suggested? (public place, being open to a "chaperone", or anything else reasonable).

 

[KevInDaBassment]

Unless you have or want to move into a song list that is, or can be predominantly female oriented, perhaps your CL ad would best serve the band by being open to anyone. You never know who might show up and surprise you.

Good luck with your search.

I agree wholeheartedly...I am the new guy though, so I'm kind of at the bottom of the totem pole at the moment. I prefer to not make too many waves when I'm that fresh to the group, but if this doesn't pan out or we run into hiccups, my first suggestion will be "Hey, lets try a little broader approach to vocalists now..."

I don't know if this was what you were suggesting but just putting out a non-specific vocalist ad and only auditioning females might seem a bit shifty, but could be the better route to go. Either way, giving you credit for that idea if it pans out

 

[KevInDaBassment]

It's true that some women might be nervous, and sometimes things do happen to us, but consider this - you may be playing at bars or other venues where guys will hit on them or make rude remarks. do you want a singer who is intimidated in that situation?

Very fair point, I heard that from some other users as well. I would like to think that if something did go down at a club or bar, she would know we all "have her back" if things get dicey, and that she'd have ours too. I'm just trying to be conscientious as being outnumbered in an unsure situation can be intimidating for anyone. It is reassuring to hear others didn't really have a problem with this scenario...but we're all bassists and dealing with guitarists has made us a rather resilient bunch

Thanks for your advice!!

 

[knumbskull]

@Plucky The Bassist it’s a good idea for a thread. I think you’ll be fine, because you have consideration for others that extends beyond your own bubble.

 

[fishdreams]

@Plucky The Bassist You brought up a great point that does not have easy answers and I commend you for it. You asked for advice and I can point you to this organisation called We Have Voice set up by a number of leading female and gender-nonconformist jazz musicians that has set up a code of conduct for the performing arts. You can find it here Invalid Link Removed . There may not be direct answers in here, but I hope it's a useful resource to help set up what you want to achieve. Good luck with your search for that great vocalist.