MarkBass CMD 121p speakon issue

[phipop]

ok thank you S-verybigbottom

 

[phipop]

( hope this dont hurt S-littlebottom)

 

[Redridge]

NOPE!

Amps over 300 watts and Class D need full shock protection which the Speakon connector provides. Phone plugs or 1/4 plugs sleeves are "Hot" and live to ground.
That is why high powered amps do not give a phone plug option.

huh, 1/4" speaker connectors are 2 wires (red/black like the terminals on speakers), not like instrument cable... the better ones are even 12 or 10 gauge wires.

 

[phipop]

I dont understand much about these cables, speakon is total ok, but not in THIS place in the stomach of the amp!

 

[Redbrangus]

It looks like the amp chassis would slide right out of the cab if you removed the 4 screws on the back. That would make it much easier to access the stuck connector. Be sure to unplug the internal speaker before removing the amp.

 

[agedhorse]

These speakon connectors are a scam... 1/4" connectors have been used forever and never had these types of problems (getting stuck). I would just use the 1/4" connectors next time, just make sure they are made for speakers and not for instruments.

No sir, they are not. They are superior in every way to 1/4" connections and are required in some regions on class D amps with BTL output stages because the shell of the 1/4" plug would then carry voltage (as much as 100V depending on the amp). 1/4" plugs sometimes get stuck when the rivet that holds the tip on fails. They more often break off as well.

you know you can use the speakon or 1/4" connectors right?

View attachment 7293383

No that's NOT a SpeakOn combo jack, but on that example there is a 1/4" jack that can be used in place of the SpeakOn.

huh, 1/4" speaker connectors are 2 wires (red/black like the terminals on speakers), not like instrument cable... the better ones are even 12 or 10 gauge wires.

Yes, the wire is independent of the plugs. For 1/4" plugs, I do not recommend larger than 14 gauge wire because the larger barrel (jumbo) plugs stick out farther and with t he added weight of the larger cable can easily damage the jacks on the equipment. We aren't talking about instrument cables here, speaker cables.

 

[Redridge]

wow, I guess with the invention of the speakon jacks... I/4" jacks are instantly bad or unsafe to use... Wonder how decades of musician using 300watt SVT with a daisy chain of walled speakers still alive without speakon.

Hey OP: Here is your manual look on page 17 #2, Speaker Out "SPEAKON / 1/4” COMBO JACK"

No sir, they are not. They are superior in every way to 1/4" connections and are required in some regions on class D amps with BTL output stages because the shell of the 1/4" plug would then carry voltage (as much as 100V depending on the amp). 1/4" plugs sometimes get stuck when the rivet that holds the tip on fails. They more often break off as well.

Why do Markbass, Ampeg and other big Co. still offer 1/4" speaker out (even to their 300-800 watt amps) then? Why does the market offer speakon on one end of a cable and 1/4" jack in the other end, protection on one side only? lol... to my point 1/4" is not obsolete. BTW failures aside, 1/4" jacks goes in/out only one way, unlike the speakon jacks... as the OP demonstrated.

No that's NOT a SpeakOn combo jack, but on that example there is a 1/4" jack that can be used in place of the SpeakOn.

yes it is, It is similar to an XLR/TS combo. I should know... I own the amp. look on page 17, line #2, Speaker Out "SPEAKON / 1/4” COMBO JACK"

Yes, the wire is independent of the plugs. For 1/4" plugs, I do not recommend larger than 14 gauge wire because the larger barrel (jumbo) plugs stick out farther and with t he added weight of the larger cable can easily damage the jacks on the equipment. We aren't talking about instrument cables here, speaker cables.

lol, yes speaker cables only, this is for an extension cab, its only a 3ft run max, I wouldn't worry about weight to much... speakon or 1/4" I'd easily use both in these application in a pinch.

 

[Redridge]

NOPE!
That is why high powered amps do not give a phone plug option.

Not true, check out page 13. Ampeg PF350-800 watt amp uses Speakon AND 1/4". I think you guys been drinking the speakon coolaid to much... love the marketing though. lol

"The two Speaker Outputs are wired in parallel, and you can use either one or both."

https://ampeg.com/data/6/0a020a413ffd5f43dc3a7c083/application/pdf/Owner%E2%80%99s%20Manual%20-%20English%20.pdf

 

[agedhorse]

wow, I guess with the invention of the speakon jacks... I/4" jacks are instantly bad or unsafe to use... Wonder how decades of musician using 300watt SVT with a daisy chain of walled speakers still alive without speakon.

Hey OP: Here is your manual look on page 17 #2, Speaker Out "SPEAKON / 1/4” COMBO JACK"

For tube amps, 1/4" jacks are generally not as much of an issue because tube power amps are ground referenced, lower powered, and are generally immune to shorted outputs. When a 1/4" plug is removed from the jack, there is a moment where the tip and sleeve are shorted and this can damage a solid state output section though designers try to protect against such damage, the protection is not always 100% effective.

The picture the OP posted is NOT a combo jack. MarkBass uses combo jacks on SOME of their amps but not all. The combo jack protrudes 3/16" from the surface of the chassis and is marked SpeakOn-1/4":

Why do Markbass, Ampeg and other big Co. still offer 1/4" speaker out (even to their 300-800 watt amps) then? Why does the market offer speakon on one end of a cable and 1/4" jack in the other end, protection on one side only? lol... to my point 1/4" is not obsolete. BTW failures aside, 1/4" jacks goes in/out only one way, unlike the speakon jacks... as the OP demonstrated.

They only offer a 1/4" option on their non-bridged (BTL) output amps. In some markets, they have to remove 1/4" jacks where they don't meet the international safety standards of that region.

yes it is, It is similar to an XLR/TS combo. I should know... I own the amp. look on page 17, line #2, Speaker Out "SPEAKON / 1/4” COMBO JACK"

I see that description, but the picture is not the same as your description.

lol, yes speaker cables only, this is for an extension cab, its only a 3ft run max, I wouldn't worry about weight to much... speakon or 1/4" I'd easily use both in these application in a pinch.

It's "all good" until somebody picks up the top cabinet while still connected and bends or breaks the jack or plug. I see it happen often enough that it IS a real world problem.

Not true, check out page 13. Ampeg PF350-800 watt amp uses Speakon AND 1/4". I think you guys been drinking the speakon coolaid to much... love the marketing though. lol

"The two Speaker Outputs are wired in parallel, and you can use either one or both."

https://ampeg.com/data/6/0a020a413ffd5f43dc3a7c083/application/pdf/Owner%E2%80%99s%20Manual%20-%20English%20.pdf

What you are missing is that these particular amps do not use a bridged output stage, therefore touch voltages don't come into play. Their new Venture amps do use a BTL output stage and therefore use SpeakOn (NL2 unless they finally changed them out to the industry standard NL4) only!

 

[Geri O]

These speakon connectors are a scam... 1/4" connectors have been used forever and never had these types of problems (getting stuck). I would just use the 1/4" connectors next time, just make sure they are made for speakers and not for instruments.

Good grief.

What’s next? IEMs are ruining the music business?

Oh, wait, that road is already well-traveled, albeit full of potholes…..

 

[Redridge]

Good grief.

What’s next? IEMs are ruining the music business?

Oh, wait, that road is already well-traveled, albeit full of potholes…..

yup, you see all these TBers thinking that 1/4" jacks are obsoletes and are so dangerous. lol

 

[agedhorse]

yup, you see all these TBers thinking that 1/4" jacks are obsoletes and are so dangerous. lol

If you look around the room, you will see that you are about the only one here who’s “obsolete”.

I design amps for a living, been doing it for a long time. I have posted WHY SpeakOns have become the standard, this is an opportunity for you to learn something.

 

[Redridge]

ok... thats great you design amps. I perfectly understand electrically how speakons are "superior" (I'm an I&C engineer). Again, In the context of the OP's post... I see nothing wrong with my suggestion using 1/4" jacks for Philips' amp. Markbass offers speakon/1/4" combo jacks for his amp... he can use either or for his cab extension. It is you who is stuck and should learn a bit of practicality and flexibility in the design these amps give... they give you choices as stated in the manuals I posted.

 

[Redbrangus]

These speakon connectors are a scam... 1/4" connectors have been used forever and never had these types of problems (getting stuck).

I don't think anyone would have had a problem with a mere suggestion. In fact, I was trying to convey that same message.

I more-or-less stopped using quarter-phones as much as possible about 25 years ago, and I've still had more quarter-phone plugs fail than NL4s -- many more. Speakons are electrically AND mechanically superior, and definitely not any sort of 'scam'.

 

[Redridge]

of course 1/4" plugs have more failures, they are a lot more prevalent and been around longer than speakons... its statistics. Electrically superior? There is a reason why we (US) have grounding codes in place. Speakon was invented in EU, known for strict electrical codes and IMO very restrictive. As for the mechanical lock, that's what more likely caused the OP's stuck connector in the first place... for blind locations, (which Philip complained about), speakons' are not as easily connected like 1/4" jacks. It''s not that idiot proof you are likely to believe... Ive seen many OEM's push their so called "industry standards", maybe in the future that will happen, but not today. Still plenty of 1/4" jacks around for us "low end" user.

 

[agedhorse]

ok... thats great you design amps. I perfectly understand electrically how speakons are "superior" (I'm an I&C engineer). Again, In the context of the OP's post... I see nothing wrong with my suggestion using 1/4" jacks for Philips' amp. Markbass offers speakon/1/4" combo jacks for his amp... he can use either or for his cab extension. It is you who is stuck and should learn a bit of practicality and flexibility in the design these amps give... they give you choices as stated in the manuals I posted.

of course 1/4" plugs have more failures, they are a lot more prevalent and been around longer than speakons... its statistics. Electrically superior? There is a reason why we (US) have grounding codes in place. Speakon was invented in EU, known for strict electrical codes and IMO very restrictive. As for the mechanical lock, that's what more likely caused the OP's stuck connector in the first place... for blind locations, (which Philip complained about), speakons' are not as easily connected like 1/4" jacks. It''s not that idiot proof you are likely to believe... Ive seen many OEM's push their so called "industry standards", maybe in the future that will happen, but not today. Still plenty of 1/4" jacks around for us "low end" user.

If you are an engineer, (I’m an industrial controls & power systems engineer with a regulatory background) then you should have understood the reasons I gave for WHY SpeakOns have become the defacto standard on new amps that are internationally safety compliant.

You suggest that we gave strict grounding codes in the US, but fail to understand that the reasons for these connectors (and many other aspects of the UL/cUL/IEC 62368 standards) is to protect the user (and to a lesser degree the equipment) from injury and fire under real world conditions when there are faults within the equipment AND the electrical system (including the grounding/protective earth system). There are still many regions where there is no ground/protective earth systems in place and the equipment must be safe under these conditions too.

This is why you sometimes find different connectors and internal construction on equipment built for different regions, but in general today most equipment is built to the most restrictive regulatory standards to simplify both production and regulatory compliance.

IF an amp comes from the factory with 1/4” jacks and it has regulatory compliance with those jacks, than it’s safe to use that way. For a variety of reasons that I gave earlier, some amps (BTL and very high power, plus non-shorting during removal) can’t meet the requirements of compliance in all markets so SpeakOn is the alternate compliant solution (for both touch voltage and contact current density reasons).

This is similar to the days before NEMA twistlock power receptacles, accidents and injuries occurred when connections were made to a randomly or custom wired device. The migration to NEMA L series devices greatly improved safety in the industrial/commercial workplace.

The main cause of failures in SpeakOn plugs/jacks is the market being flooded with really poor quality counterfeit and knock-offs of the genuine Neutrik articles. But that’s no different than the issues with knock-off 1/4” plugs that weren’t quite 1/4” (both larger and smaller), and incorrect tip profile that would crush the mating contact in the jack.

 

[Redridge]

If you are an engineer, (I’m an industrial controls & power systems engineer with a regulatory background) then you should have understood the reasons I gave for WHY SpeakOns have become the defacto standard on new amps that are internationally safety compliant.

I do understand the reason you gave, But, In the context of the OP's dilemma... its all mumbo jumbo, his amp has the option to use 1/4" jack, why not use it? 1/4" will be around a long time, its just too commonly used. I'm not even gonna mention the home theater industry... very high powered amps used there, yet bare wire, bannana plug, speaker connections. So much for "standards". lol

You suggest that we gave strict grounding codes in the US, but fail to understand that the reasons for these connectors (and many other aspects of the UL/cUL/IEC 62368 standards) is to protect the user (and to a lesser degree the equipment) from injury and fire under real world conditions when there are faults within the equipment AND the electrical system (including the grounding/protective earth system). There are still many regions where there is no ground/protective earth systems in place and the equipment must be safe under these conditions too.

I do understand the grounding codes, that's why I mentioned it. Usually, a fault happens when a device is plugged in (3 prongs for safety)... this fault protection applies to BOTH connectors, speakon and 1/4" jacks.

But I'll give you that, for places that are out of code... speakon connectors are a bit safer. But many amp manufacturers do recognizes ground faults in their circuits and wont function, turn on or even shut down. For us who lives in places where inspections for safety codes are mandated... a correctly wired, fully insulated, sufficiently sized speaker wire, using 1/4" plug is fine when a fault arises, including the OP's issue with the speakon connector being stuck.

This is why you sometimes find different connectors and internal construction on equipment built for different regions, but in general today most equipment is built to the most restrictive regulatory standards to simplify both production and regulatory compliance.

IF an amp comes from the factory with 1/4” jacks and it has regulatory compliance with those jacks, than it’s safe to use that way. For a variety of reasons that I gave earlier, some amps (BTL and very high power, plus non-shorting during removal) can’t meet the requirements of compliance in all markets so SpeakOn is the alternate compliant solution (for both touch voltage and contact current density reasons).

Again, the OP's amp comes with both speakon and 1/4" jacks so, he can use either of the two... hence my suggestion using 1/4" jacks. lol

BTW, shorting out is more common with TS connectors going into a TRS connectors. You wont see manufacturers use TRS with TS speaker connections for cab extensions.

This is similar to the days before NEMA twistlock power receptacles, accidents and injuries occurred when connections were made to a randomly or custom wired device. The migration to NEMA L series devices greatly improved safety in the industrial/commercial workplace.

The main cause of failures in SpeakOn plugs/jacks is the market being flooded with really poor quality counterfeit and knock-offs of the genuine Neutrik articles. But that’s no different than the issues with knock-off 1/4” plugs that weren’t quite 1/4” (both larger and smaller), and incorrect tip profile that would crush the mating contact in the jack.

Finally, something we can agree on!

 

[agedhorse]

I do understand the reason you gave, But, In the context of the OP's dilemma... its all mumbo jumbo, his amp has the option to use 1/4" jack, why not use it? 1/4" will be around a long time, its just too commonly used. I'm not even gonna mention the home theater industry... very high powered amps used there, yet bare wire, bannana plug, speaker connections. So much for "standards". lol


I do understand the grounding codes, that's why I mentioned it. Usually, a fault happens when a device is plugged in (3 prongs for safety)... this fault protection applies to BOTH connectors, speakon and 1/4" jacks.

But I'll give you that, for places that are out of code... speakon connectors are a bit safer. But many amp manufacturers do recognizes ground faults in their circuits and wont function, turn on or even shut down. For us who lives in places where inspections for safety codes are mandated... a correctly wired, fully insulated, sufficiently sized speaker wire, using 1/4" plug is fine when a fault arises, including the OP's issue with the speakon connector being stuck.



Again, the OP's amp comes with both speakon and 1/4" jacks so, he can use either of the two... hence my suggestion using 1/4" jacks. lol

BTW, shorting out is more common with TS connectors going into a TRS connectors. You wont see manufacturers use TRS with TS speaker connections for cab extensions.


Finally, something we can agree on!

I was commenting on the SpeakOn jack on the OP’s amp not being a combo jack. I then addressed your suggestion that SpeakOns were a scam.

I am not aware of a single amp that will shut down due to a ground fault, IMO, you are making this up. It’s not that the region isn’t up to code, it’s that their codes are DIFFERENT!

Shorting tip to sleeve is a problem with TS jacks as well. Any TS jack with a full metal sleeve suffers from this as the plug is withdrawn from jack. SpeakOn does not suffer from this.

Banana (MDP) jacks can’t be certified for many regions due to the similarities with the dimensions of some European power plugs/sockets. This is why there are binding post connectors manufactured with exclusion plugs so that they can ONLY be used as a binding post. They also need to include touch resistant features for approval.

This is all for UL/cUL/IEC 62368 safety compliant products. There are a lot more freedoms if a product isn’t safety compliant…

 

[Redridge]

I was commenting on the SpeakOn jack on the OP’s amp not being a combo jack. I then addressed your suggestion that SpeakOns were a scam.

here's some logic for you, If an amp manufacturer have a speakon/1/4" combo option... why not just use the cheaper alternative 1/4" jack? Hence the scam.

I am not aware of a single amp that will shut down due to a ground fault, IMO, you are making this up. It’s not that the region isn’t up to code, it’s that their codes are DIFFERENT!

Ground fault are essentially a short circuit, that can lead to voltage drops, overcurrent and overheating... any of these can trigger an amps protection circuit... that can shut down an amp to protect itself and speakers.

BTW, earth ground is code... its supposed to be there, if its not there "its not up to code" in any region.

Shorting tip to sleeve is a problem with TS jacks as well. Any TS jack with a full metal sleeve suffers from this as the plug is withdrawn from jack. SpeakOn does not suffer from this.

Banana (MDP) jacks can’t be certified for many regions due to the similarities with the dimensions of some European power plugs/sockets. This is why there are binding post connectors manufactured with exclusion plugs so that they can ONLY be used as a binding post. They also need to include touch resistant features for approval.

This is all for UL/cUL/IEC 62368 safety compliant products. There are a lot more freedoms if a product isn’t safety compliant…

Ok... I think I'm beating a dead horse (no pun intended, lol). Long live the 1/4" jacks! Thanks for the dual agedhorse, touche!

 

[agedhorse]

here's some logic for you, If an amp manufacturer have a speakon/1/4" combo option... why not just use the cheaper alternative 1/4" jack? Hence the scam.

It's not a scam because there is a large number of players that already moved on from 1/4" plugs to SpeakOn (usually because their amps required SpeakOns due to being very large or based on BTL topology) so SpeakOn or combo jacks are a forward compatible solution. A good designer looks ahead, not just backwards.

Ground fault are essentially a short circuit, that can lead to voltage drops, overcurrent and overheating... any of these can trigger an amps protection circuit... that can shut down an amp to protect itself and speakers.

BTW, earth ground is code... its supposed to be there, if its not there "its not up to code" in any region.

Ground faults are NOT a short circuit, it doesn't lead to voltage drops, overcurrent, overheating, etc. A ground fault is ANY leakage of primary circuit current to ground, and there is no protection in any amp that detects or shuts the amp down.

If you were to plug an amp with ground fault current (leakage) into a GFCI protected receptacle (in the US), and this leakage current exceeds 4-6mA, the circuit will open. There will ALWAYS be a small amount of leakage current, due to both parasitic capacitance to ground, but also due to EMI filtering that may be required to meet EMC regulatory standards.

IF there is no safety (protective) ground (earth) present (very common is many regions, and this is allowed by THEIR electrical codes), excessive leakage currents can present very high touch voltages, which is why leakage coupling is so heavily regulated in compliant equipment. Most designs address both the US/Canada 120V standards as well as the Global 230V market standards.

Each region has their own electrical "codes" or regulations, it's NOT necessarily required to be present. Bekow are some of the countries where a ground is not required (though may be allowed if desired):