- Apr 3, 2003
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Well, to my ears, the LMII is plenty 'big' in the low end. If anything, the SD800 just sounds a bit softer in the low mids.
Tom.
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Markbass F1 First Impressions
- Thread starter KJung
- Start date
Well, to my ears, the LMII is plenty 'big' in the low end. If anything, the SD800 just sounds a bit softer in the low mids.
Tom.
That would be a different issue. I too feel the LMII has plenty of low end, and it does have a nice low mid punch. The SD800 has a much more extended low end (and of course, gets about twice as loud in an absolute sense).
Like most of the class D amps I've owned, I agree it does favor the upper mids a touch versus the lower mids. This is easily balanced with just a touch of boost at between 200 and 400hz depending on the cab with the very nice low mid semi-parametric.
Given the F1's less extended low end versus the SD800 (I assume either due to the lower power, or as I was hypothesizing with Figuredbass, possibly a low frequency cut off point set higher than the SD800, and more similar to the LMII), the F1 seems to have a little more mid punch inherent in its tone versus the very wide and deep SD800. It's pretty subtle though, and again, the semi-parametric low mid control works wonders.
That being said, I agree the LMII (and F1) would work much better with the cabs you listed versus the SD800
- Apr 3, 2003
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- Editor-in-Chief, Bass Gear Magazine
I guess that I am not hearing that the same as you. You are trying to match the gains/volumes, right? If the SD800 were louder, it would of course sound more extended in the low end.
Tom.
Yes. They sound quite different at the same volume to me when set flat. Also, when you really crank it, the low end of the SD800 stays wide and clean at crushing volumes, which is really the key to the SD800 (and any 'lead sled' spec'd amp IMO), and you would hope so with the extra wattage. The nature of the low end is much different to me.... it seems the SD800 extends another 10hz lower than the LMII or F1. Quite frankly, that's not always a good thing (and to me, it makes the SD800 quite picky regarding cabs, similar to the iAmp800, due to the big low end.. I agree with you, it can get a little loose if the cab is also tuned very low).
However, I think like you, I again prefer the inherent tone of the LMII the best out of all these amps. If someone put a gun to my head and said I could only keep one MB head, it would be the LMII at this point (although the F1 if I was using my Berg's!)
- Apr 3, 2003
- 35,516
- 19,953
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- Editor-in-Chief, Bass Gear Magazine
What I am hearing at similar gig volumes, is that the LMII stays more 'taught' and forceful in the low end, while the SD800 gets a bit looser, and seems to run out of gas (or at least run out of that visceral punch that I love) in the lows to low mids. I am actually getting more usable volume (again, within the context of my preferences, and within the context of the cabs I have used it with - namely, Berg HT210/HT115, Glockenklang Double, Epifani T-212D/UL-112, and Carvin LS1503) out of the LMII.
I wonder if I might have a defective SD800? It doesn't come close to the really powerful, tight low end of my big lead sled heads/amps.
Other than the UL-410, what cab pairings have been the best with your SD800?Tom.
What I am hearing at similar gig volumes, is that the LMII stays more 'taught' and forceful in the low end, while the SD800 gets a bit looser, and seems to run out of gas (or at least run out of that visceral punch that I love) in the lows to low mids. I am actually getting more usable volume (again, within the context of my preferences, and within the context of the cabs I have used it with - namely, Berg HT210/HT115, Glockenklang Double, Epifani T-212D/UL-112, and Carvin LS1503) out of the LMII.
I wonder if I might have a defective SD800? It doesn't come close to the really powerful, tight low end of my big lead sled heads/amps.
Tom.
Yeah, something's not right there. Again, I too find the LMII 'better' sounding, punchier, etc. at moderate volumes, but man, the SD800 is louder and fuller than the LMII at max volume when the SD800 is barely on. When Jason, Steve, etc. were over, and we were doing the A/Bing, when we cranked up the SD800, it was like 'whoa'
, and while it was the least favorite head among most that were with Steve's house recently, it did win the 'big wump' award for sheer, massive ooomph. Most actually didn't like the top end, which is a little clinical compared to the LMII and many other amps.I really only prefer the SD800 to the LMII with the 410UL Series II (although again the low end and volume are massive through everything. I hear somewhat similar things to what you are hearing with the Epi410UL I and also the 's' stack.... a little too much deep low end extension versus low mid punch (even when EQ'd).
It sounds good with the DB112 stack, but it's too much amp for those little 112's.. I feel like the speakers are going to come out of the front when I crank it.
It could just be our completely different tone goals also... we really do like different tones, and everything about our tone, set-up and playing styles is different. It is a really modern voiced head.... very crisp up top and very little warmth... it's a SS machine, which I don't think is really your thing.
So, hard to compare. However, if the SD800 isn't massively louder than the LMII, something might be wrong with it IMO.
I'll sound like a broken record here, since I try to constantly do this, but here goesI'm all about modern, clean but not sterile J style bass, new stainless steel roundwound tone. As you can see from my influences, I like LOTS of upper treble sizzle, somewhat grindy upper mids, and a big enough low end to put a pillow under a band. While I respect the Jaco type tone, that's as far away from my tone as you can get. I do play fingerstyle close to the bridge, but usually with both pickups open wide, or in the case of a wider voiced J bass like the Sadowksy J, with the bridge pickup slightly favored. I also very much dislike the huge 'play at the neck and favor the neck pickup tone', which gives you the pillow, but not enough note definition for the pop/funk/light jazz stuff that I do. For slap tone, a variation of Marcus's tone (not quite so over the top... but as 'single coil J' as you can get with active on-board pre) is my ultimate goal, which I rarely reach (that is a REALLY hard sound to replicate at volume with backline equipment... but I'll keep tryin'!)
Playing a PBass would be my ultimate hell!
That's why these quick SS heads work so well for me. Of course, the tone goals that I don't like work wonderfully for other contexts and other players.... rock, fusion jazz, etc., etc.
Edit: And again, remember, I prefer the LMII to the SD800 or the F1 for the above tone... but I dig the massive wump of the SD800 for loud gigs if carefully matched to the right cab!
I'll sound like a broken record here, since I try to constantly do this, but here goes
Playing a PBass would be my ultimate hell!
That's why these quick SS heads work so well for me. Of course, the tone goals that I don't like work wonderfully for other contexts and other players.... rock, fusion jazz, etc., etc.
Edit: And again, remember, I prefer the LMII to the SD800 or the F1 for the above tone... but I dig the massive wump of the SD800 for loud gigs if carefully matched to the right cab!
Thanks Ken. +1 on everything you said with one minor exception. (for me) I would clearly gravitate to your sound. (Your Bass/instrument preferences are also rather telling; Celinder, Alleva, Nordy etc)
IHere is the one exception: do at times, try to get a Jaco tone on some fingerstyle songs where I want a heavy midrange/burpy growl. That is easily attained however with PU balance slanted toward the bridge PU, and some passive tone control roll off on my bass.) For the most part, I like a clear, bright high end too that not overly sizzly. The highs I prefer are well integrated into a tight, punchy mid fingerstyle tone with balanced lows that are deep enough to fill the band mix, but without sounding too deep, boomy and overwhelming. (God it's hard to describe tone in words) I like an articulate tone where each note is dinstinct and percussive. But with enough depth to fill out the low end in the band mix. LOL
+1... I do like a bridge oriented, play close to the bridge tone also, but still with a resonable amount of low end, and not overly percussive. I don't quite have the chops and time to pull off 3 minutes of even 16ths with only the bridge pickup on
I am a fanatic about the treble response though, and also getting a tight low end, not an overextended one. The vast majority of bass players I see live in clubs, etc. have too much low end, and not near enough upper mid note definition, and most (even the slappers) have absolutely no sizzle that makes it past the end of the stage. That's the hardest part for me, and the real test of a rig. Of course, with front of house and a good engineer, with those massive horns and subs, etc., no problem
I love what my buddy Mikebass (who has a MAGNIFICENT tone) calls it.... hearing the windings on the B string. I want to hear some upper mids and actually some high treble on my E and B strings... the entire bass spectrum. Not necessarily Marcus sizzle, or the hi fi 8K thing like an MTD or something, but true upper mid and treble 'grind' when you dig in. That's an expensive tone to like!
- Apr 3, 2003
- 35,516
- 19,953
- Disclosures
- Editor-in-Chief, Bass Gear Magazine
My tonal goals are perhaps a bit different than what people might expect, given my playing style and genre of music covered. First off, regarding playing style, I am almost exclusively fingerstyle, and I generally play over the neck pickup (though, contrary to what others might think, my tonal objectives are far more clear and articulate than some might believe, given this proclivity for the neck pickup 
). Genre-wise, I am currently playing mostly rock (hard, classic, modern, emo, you name it), blues, (some) pop, funk/disco (limited selections from both, and no fancy slap work!), (some) top 40, and some country. Though I have in the past also played jazz, bluegrass, small band and big band swing - and classical, but that is unamplified on upright, so that doesn't really count.
With this range of music, I tend to have a lot of different tones for different songs, and I like to bring a rig that can cover a lot of ground. But, my personal tone goals are very broad range, frequency-wise (think baby grand, but packing a punch
), fullness without muddiness, very balanced midrange (no big peaks/valleys), deep/full/tight low end, great articulation from top to bottom, and a lot of definition to the attack. I also prefer SS roundwounds, and I like to get a bit of that 'finger scraping across the windings' kind of definition to the start of each note. I do like a very full tone (especially when I am playing in a one-guitar band), but not at the expense of definition and attack. Trust me, it can be a challenge (well, at least it used to be!) to achieve that mix of fullness/clarity/balance that I tend to go after.
To be honest, my goals for clarity/articulation are perhaps not entirely in line with the general expectations for some of the genres I play (which may tend to normally feature a more round, warm, pillowy tone that what I am getting - or at least going for). That said, if the song calls for it, I'll roll back some treble, play with the thick part of my finger, and get a nice big, warm, fat attack (without much zing). When I do the funk/disco stuff, it's normally the opposite - I dial in some high end and pluck in a more 'pop-like' fashion - though still over the neck pup. I haven't really found anyone that sounds like what I am after in my head, though I do really like the sound that the bass player from Dishwalla gets on Pet Your Friends. And I love Timmy C, though no one can really cop his overdriven tones 100%. I'm definitely more Steve Harris than Marcus (not that I can play like either, though!), but again, more clear/articulate than what some people might expect.
Tom.
P.S.
Sorry for the excessive verbosity. It's kinda what I do, though.
). Genre-wise, I am currently playing mostly rock (hard, classic, modern, emo, you name it), blues, (some) pop, funk/disco (limited selections from both, and no fancy slap work!), (some) top 40, and some country. Though I have in the past also played jazz, bluegrass, small band and big band swing - and classical, but that is unamplified on upright, so that doesn't really count. With this range of music, I tend to have a lot of different tones for different songs, and I like to bring a rig that can cover a lot of ground. But, my personal tone goals are very broad range, frequency-wise (think baby grand, but packing a punch
), fullness without muddiness, very balanced midrange (no big peaks/valleys), deep/full/tight low end, great articulation from top to bottom, and a lot of definition to the attack. I also prefer SS roundwounds, and I like to get a bit of that 'finger scraping across the windings' kind of definition to the start of each note. I do like a very full tone (especially when I am playing in a one-guitar band), but not at the expense of definition and attack. Trust me, it can be a challenge (well, at least it used to be!) to achieve that mix of fullness/clarity/balance that I tend to go after.To be honest, my goals for clarity/articulation are perhaps not entirely in line with the general expectations for some of the genres I play (which may tend to normally feature a more round, warm, pillowy tone that what I am getting - or at least going for). That said, if the song calls for it, I'll roll back some treble, play with the thick part of my finger, and get a nice big, warm, fat attack (without much zing). When I do the funk/disco stuff, it's normally the opposite - I dial in some high end and pluck in a more 'pop-like' fashion - though still over the neck pup.
I haven't really found anyone that sounds like what I am after in my head, though I do really like the sound that the bass player from Dishwalla gets on Pet Your Friends. And I love Timmy C, though no one can really cop his overdriven tones 100%. I'm definitely more Steve Harris than Marcus (not that I can play like either, though!), but again, more clear/articulate than what some people might expect.Tom.
P.S.
Sorry for the excessive verbosity. It's kinda what I do, though.
My tonal goals are perhaps a bit different than what people might expect, given my playing style and genre of music covered. First off, regarding playing style, I am almost exclusively fingerstyle, and I generally play over the neck pickup (though, contrary to what others might think, my tonal objectives are far more clear and articulate than some might believe, given this proclivity for the neck pickup
With this range of music, I tend to have a lot of different tones for different songs, and I like to bring a rig that can cover a lot of ground. But, my personal tone goals are very broad range, frequency-wise (think baby grand, but packing a punch
To be honest, my goals for clarity/articulation are perhaps not entirely in line with the general expectations for some of the genres I play (which may tend to normally feature a more round, warm, pillowy tone that what I am getting - or at least going for). That said, if the song calls for it, I'll roll back some treble, play with the thick part of my finger, and get a nice big, warm, fat attack (without much zing). When I do the funk/disco stuff, it's normally the opposite - I dial in some high end and pluck in a more 'pop-like' fashion - though still over the neck pup.
Tom.
P.S.
Sorry for the excessive verbosity. It's kinda what I do, though.
Tom ...You can Write man! Well Said! Thanks
I am really digging this F1.
The more I use it (and get used to it) the more I like it.
For example, I was in a rush last night and didn't have time to grab a 2x10 cab to pair with my 1x15 Ampeg cab at rehearsal (my guitard and drummer are really loud!) so had to play my F1 through just one 1x15.
WOW! With gain on about 3 and volume at about 6 or 7, I cut no problem with my active MIA Fender Jazz V.
I brought my new passive Gibson SG Reissue just to try out in the mix for a few tunes to make sure I will not be returning it and WOW again. It cut extremely well and I was in no danger of becoming lost behind 200W of Marshall tube noise.
This amp is a keeper and I don't miss dragging around 50+lbs of Ampeg!:scowl:
The more I use it (and get used to it) the more I like it.For example, I was in a rush last night and didn't have time to grab a 2x10 cab to pair with my 1x15 Ampeg cab at rehearsal (my guitard and drummer are really loud!) so had to play my F1 through just one 1x15.
WOW!
With gain on about 3 and volume at about 6 or 7, I cut no problem with my active MIA Fender Jazz V.I brought my new passive Gibson SG Reissue just to try out in the mix for a few tunes to make sure I will not be returning it and WOW again.
It cut extremely well and I was in no danger of becoming lost behind 200W of Marshall tube noise.This amp is a keeper and I don't miss dragging around 50+lbs of Ampeg!:scowl:
I am really digging this F1.
For example, I was in a rush last night and didn't have time to grab a 2x10 cab to pair with my 1x15 Ampeg cab at rehearsal (my guitard and drummer are really loud!) so had to play my F1 through just one 1x15.
WOW!
I brought my new passive Gibson SG Reissue just to try out in the mix for a few tunes to make sure I will not be returning it and WOW again.
This amp is a keeper and I don't miss dragging around 50+lbs of Ampeg!:scowl:
Awesome! I've also come to believe it's just the coolest looking little thing on the planet. Having that little sliver of a thing drive the heck out of a big 410 is really something!
The 410UL(II)/Alleva/F1 was KILLIN' last night in Lexington. Big, boomy room.. moderately loud band. I literally had the amp set flat, which just a touch of sizzle dialed out with the VLE (8 o'clock). It was just a punch monster in the boomy room. It was not as dense a mix as I usually play in (only bass, guitar, keys, drums and a couple singers), but still lots of sound to muscle through.
Per Tom's comments above, the F1 doesn't have the huge volume and massive low end of the SD800, but in most mixes and at all but stupid high volume, I prefer the LMII and the F1... a little tighter, a little low mid punchier. The F1 still has the more hi fi top end, and a little more going on in the upper mids than the very sweet sounding LMII, but it does sound killer, and it just looks so cool sitting on top of a big cab.
It's a keeper in a BIG way!!!!
Per Tom's comments above, the F1 doesn't have the huge volume and massive low end of the SD800, but in most mixes and at all but stupid high volume, I prefer the LMII and the F1... a little tighter, a little low mid punchier. The F1 still has the more hi fi top end, and a little more going on in the upper mids than the very sweet sounding LMII, but it does sound killer, and it just looks so cool sitting on top of a big cab.
It's a keeper in a BIG way!!!!
Your shirt pocket.i just got the f1 today!!!
