Markbass Megathread PART 3

[Vic]

the SA800 and the Jeff Berlin combo. The 800 is just the LM II with higher wattage and a couple extra features.

A couple corrections... there's no such thing as an SA800. There's an SD800. Also, the SD800 is a different family of amp than the LMII/SA450. The LMII/SA450 have analog power amps, and the SD800 and F1 have digital power amps. Fairly different beasts.

In short, the SD800 does have a few more features than the LMII, but it's not the same thing.

They sounded identical plugged in to a 2-10" cab.

Wow, I never would have expected to hear this. They sound fairly different to most folks.

 

[JimmyM]

I am terrible with model numbers. They should come up with names instead of numbers. I'd call the 12" combo the Little Mark Slam!

Well maybe my testing methods are different from other people, but when I test a new amp, I set it totally flat then add or take out EQ as I need. If I'm happy with the sound flat, I usually leave it. And set flat at the same volume, they sounded identical to me. I'm sure the extra knobs give you more tone shaping and the headroom is appreciated on big gigs, but if they didn't even have knobs on this thing I'd still be just as happy with the LM II.

 

[JimmyM]

You know, come to think of it, maybe the DI in Markbass amps is the best in the world. After all, what else is a DI but something that allows you to pass the tone of your bass to the PA? And if the amp allows you to pass the tone of your bass through the amp to the speaker, doesn't it stand to reason that the tone of a post-EQ DI would sound every bit as quality as what you're hearing in your amp?

DOH! I wish I could get my hands on an Avalon U5 to A/B!

 

[Brad Johnson]

I briefly had a U5, turned out the only setting I really liked sounded identical to my AMP BH420 (my main amp at the time) set flat. made the U5 redundant.

 

[KJung]

So as I was ordering my 12" extension cab, I spent a little more time with a couple amps I didn't get to try yet...the SA800 and the Jeff Berlin combo. The 800 is just the LM II with higher wattage and a couple extra features. They sounded identical plugged in to a 2-10" cab. The Berlin sounds like the world's greatest B-15. I don't like 15"s and the only 15" rig I have ever liked in my life is the B-15 until I heard this one. It's too tubby sounding for me to want to buy, but it's certainly tops in its field if you like 15"s.

But now I'm convinced that I did the right thing by buying a 12" combo and getting an extension cab. The 2-10" sounded awesome, but the 12" combo had more beef without getting floppy like a 15". I think Markbass should do more with 12"s. I'm convinced now that the only reason 10"s became the standard is because of the SVT, and that 12"s should have been the standard. I'm also convinced that the Mini CMD would have never worked nearly as well with a 10".

Per Vic's comment, you might be thinking of the SA450, which is basically an LMII in a bigger box with two bands of semi-parametric mids and a switchable pre/post DI with output volume.

The SD800 is a VERY different beast, and is basically a higher power F1 with additional features. Both the F! and SD800 are class D amps versus the class A/B LMII and SA450, and they sound quite different to many of us.

 

[BurningSkies]

BIG +1!!

IMHO, if you're worried your production folks might screw up your bass tone if you feed them a dry signal, you have bigger fish to fry, and also IMHO/IME, feeding folks like that a wet signal only makes it worse. YMMV of course.

My problem comes from the unique fact that about 95% of the time, I'm a 'non-rock' player on stage. I play a mix of Roots, Dub, Dancehall and Rocksteady. Now, 99% of the sound guys I deal with are rock club soundmen. If I feed them a 'dry' flat signal, they only know how to deal with it for a rock setting. This is the very last thing I want or my band needs. Thus post-EQ works much better. As a player of Jamaican music, I tend to be fairly loud on stage anyway and pretty much make everyone work around my tone and volume.

 

[chadds]

Do I remember reading that the F1 can't be reconfigured? Does it come pre or post eq?

 

[KJung]

Do I remember reading that the F1 can't be reconfigured? Does it come pre or post eq?

It comes post EQ. I'm assuming it's the same simple jumper design of the LMII, but I haven't popped the top off on mine yet, nor have I used the DI on the F1.

Hopefully, Peter Murray can chime in hear and tell us if it's the same circuit design and change.

At this point, when I know I'm going to need a DI, the SD800 comes out with me (or I use the JDI).

 

[chadds]

Some folks say that like many amps the EA watt ratings may be generous. So would you say an F1 or an LMII are as loud in a real world setting, same cab(s) as an iAMP800?

 

[KJung]

Some folks say that like many amps the EA watt ratings may be generous. So would you say an F1 or an LMII are as loud in a real world setting, same cab(s) as an iAMP800?

IMO, I find both amps into 4ohms to be as loud or louder on a gig at 4ohms than the iAmp800. However (as you know), I don't think the iAmp's wattage is 'phony', but rather that huge deep bass extension results in a lot of wattage from the iAmp going to reproducing those very low frequencies. That was always my frustration with the iAmp. Even though the bass control is semi-parametric, it is still shelving (at least that's what my ears told me)... so moving the shelving point up to boost the upper bass for punch still boosted the rest of the low end, and cutting low end at a very low level left a hole to my ear in the low mids, even with the low mid semi-parametric set to the wide Q level and boosted at the upper bass level.

So, another one of my long winded answers... the F1 and LMII have more 'perceived volume' to me into 4ohms on a gig than the 800, but that's primarily due to a more attenuated low end, and a warmer, punchier, wider more pleasant mid response versus the iAmp.. Both are honestly rated but voiced very differently IMO and IME.

The SD800 BURIES the iAmp in volume IMO, but unfortunately seems to have a similar issue with super deep low end extension.. massive low end wump.. massive rumble, but actually not as much punch as the smaller amps to my ear. The SD800 would be more of a 'direct competitor' tonewise to the iAmp800, in a louder, smaller, and much lighter package IMO... a little bit clinical in the upper mids and treble, and huge, wide, massive low end.

I dig the 800 a lot, but if I was forced to choose between it and the LMII, I'd keep the LMII.

 

[tombowlus]

Some folks say that like many amps the EA watt ratings may be generous. So would you say an F1 or an LMII are as loud in a real world setting, same cab(s) as an iAMP800?

IME, the iAMP's need to have their gain stages tweaked a bit differently than many other amps in order to get the most volume out of them. For instance, I get the best results from my iAMP 800 when the input stage is run nearly wide open (say, 85% or so 'up'), and then use the master volume control for overall volume. If you set them both to 'noon' (which is a setting which often works well on some of my other heads), it is dramatically less loud.

That said, Ken does have a valid point in that the iAMP's are trying to reproduce the entire sonic spectrum, with a very balanced presentation from top to bottom, so there is no midrange push or hump to make it jump out in a mix. But as I said, with proper gain staging, I have been able to get all the stage volume I could want out of my iAMP 800. Of course, I can say the same about the LMII.

Tom.

 

[TonyP-]

Excellent observations about his technique and tone. It's not always my cup of tea on some earlier recordings. Just here to say the 15" in the Berg IP153 or it's extension EX115 is unlike any 15 I've heard. I started playing bass when were the pro choice. These babes are fast clear and in fact kind of defy knowing what they are if you couldn't see them. The biamping helps but these 15s are amazing.

Thanks Chadds
I know your timeline and I think I was on the cusp of the 15-s to 4x10 boxes

I hear nothing but going things about the IP's and sure the 15's that you are using now have come a long way from what you used back in the day.

I'm stoked to try MKII with my new cabs.....
I will report on that sometime.

 

[Vic]

My problem comes from the unique fact that about 95% of the time, I'm a 'non-rock' player on stage. I play a mix of Roots, Dub, Dancehall and Rocksteady. Now, 99% of the sound guys I deal with are rock club soundmen. If I feed them a 'dry' flat signal, they only know how to deal with it for a rock setting. This is the very last thing I want or my band needs. Thus post-EQ works much better. As a player of Jamaican music, I tend to be fairly loud on stage anyway and pretty much make everyone work around my tone and volume.

Yeah, but doesn't that just compound the problem? If they're that unskilled, aren't they gonna' just do the same thing to your signal putting eq on top of eq and mess it up even worse? That's what I'm getting at.

Or, are you saying you're going to try to eq your stage rig to compensate for the shortcomings of the FOH sound? Again, YMMV, but IME that's always been a bad deal. Either FOH suffers, stage tone suffers, or both.

The worst problem I've had with even the most limited production guys is they like to pull the high end out of my tone and just make my bass more old school than it really is... thing is, I don't see how you can compensate for that. They have the final word on your tone in FOH. You can feed them a crystalline MTD sound and they can still yank the high end out if they want. Those are the (thankfully rare) cases where I get out there with my wireless and just tell them to add some high end. Has worked ok so far.

All this assumes, of course, your stage sound is not part of what the audience hears.

 

[chadds]

IME, the iAMP's need to have their gain stages tweaked a bit differently than many other amps in order to get the most volume out of them. For instance, I get the best results from my iAMP 800 when the input stage is run nearly wide open (say, 85% or so 'up'), and then use the master volume control for overall volume. If you set them both to 'noon' (which is a setting which often works well on some of my other heads), it is dramatically less loud.

That said, Ken does have a valid point in that the iAMP's are trying to reproduce the entire sonic spectrum, with a very balanced presentation from top to bottom, so there is no midrange push or hump to make it jump out in a mix. But as I said, with proper gain staging, I have been able to get all the stage volume I could want out of my iAMP 800. Of course, I can say the same about the LMII.

Tom.

Thanks to the both of you. I'll try that tonight the iAMP trick.

 

[Brad Johnson]

IME, the iAMP's need to have their gain stages tweaked a bit differently than many other amps in order to get the most volume out of them. For instance, I get the best results from my iAMP 800 when the input stage is run nearly wide open (say, 85% or so 'up'), and then use the master volume control for overall volume. If you set them both to 'noon' (which is a setting which often works well on some of my other heads), it is dramatically less loud.

That said, Ken does have a valid point in that the iAMP's are trying to reproduce the entire sonic spectrum, with a very balanced presentation from top to bottom, so there is no midrange push or hump to make it jump out in a mix. But as I said, with proper gain staging, I have been able to get all the stage volume I could want out of my iAMP 800. Of course, I can say the same about the LMII.

Tom.

I noticed that even with my iAmp350. I took it to a small club and ran a VL208 and VL110. Even though it wasn't overbearing on stage, the lows at the back of the club sounded like I was running a subwoofer.

 

[klorence]

I noticed that even with my iAmp350. I took it to a small club and ran a VL208 and VL110. Even though it wasn't overbearing on stage, the lows at the back of the club sounded like I was running a subwoofer.

IME is sounds that way at the back of almost any club, running almost any amp/speakler configuration. Even moreso in the corners of the back of the club.

It's the nature of acoustics/laws of physics.

 

[Halftooth]

IMO, I find both amps into 4ohms to be as loud or louder on a gig at 4ohms than the iAmp800. However (as you know), I don't think the iAmp's wattage is 'phony', but rather that huge deep bass extension results in a lot of wattage from the iAmp going to reproducing those very low frequencies. That was always my frustration with the iAmp. Even though the bass control is semi-parametric, it is still shelving (at least that's what my ears told me)... so moving the shelving point up to boost the upper bass for punch still boosted the rest of the low end, and cutting low end at a very low level left a hole to my ear in the low mids, even with the low mid semi-parametric set to the wide Q level and boosted at the upper bass level.

So, another one of my long winded answers... the F1 and LMII have more 'perceived volume' to me into 4ohms on a gig than the 800, but that's primarily due to a more attenuated low end, and a warmer, punchier, wider more pleasant mid response versus the iAmp.. Both are honestly rated but voiced very differently IMO and IME.

The SD800 BURIES the iAmp in volume IMO, but unfortunately seems to have a similar issue with super deep low end extension.. massive low end wump.. massive rumble, but actually not as much punch as the smaller amps to my ear. The SD800 would be more of a 'direct competitor' tonewise to the iAmp800, in a louder, smaller, and much lighter package IMO... a little bit clinical in the upper mids and treble, and huge, wide, massive low end.

I dig the 800 a lot, but if I was forced to choose between it and the LMII, I'd keep the LMII.

Totally spot on with your analysis...

I owned an iAmp a little while back, and that was the most generous rated amp that I've owned to date. No chance that it sounded like a 1000 watt amp, and my TF550B seriously sounded as loud or louder at half the power rating. It's easily the most over-rated amp that I've come across, and pretty much soured my views towards EA's amplification products.

I have an acquaintance that just picked up the SD800 when I picked up my LMII. We A/B both amps through a Schroeder 1210L at 8 ohms, and the difference between the two amps in terms of volume was minimal...maybe the SD800 was a bit louder, but it certainly wasn't significant. It made even more impressed with the LMII!

 

[Brad Johnson]

IME is sounds that way at the back of almost any club, running almost any amp/speakler configuration. Even moreso in the corners of the back of the club.

It's the nature of acoustics/laws of physics.

Not true in my experience. Not to the degree I'm talking about. Maybe if I had said "out past the bandstand" you'd understand what I'm getting at

Matter of fact I can't think of many bass rigs I've heard live (no PA) that small, that sound like they go that low. IMO it's too much low end.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Totally spot on with your analysis...

I owned an iAmp a little while back, and that was the most generous rated amp that I've owned to date. No chance that it sounded like a 1000 watt amp, and my TF550B seriously sounded as loud or louder at half the power rating. It's easily the most over-rated amp that I've come across, and pretty much soured my views towards EA's amplification products.

I have an acquaintance that just picked up the SD800 when I picked up my LMII. We A/B both amps through a Schroeder 1210L at 8 ohms, and the difference between the two amps in terms of volume was minimal...maybe the SD800 was a bit louder, but it certainly wasn't significant. It made even more impressed with the LMII!

Are you taking into consideration how much power it takes to project the ultra low frequencies?

 

[chadds]

Went after all these threads to GC to pickup an F1.
Sales manager says it's $849 plus $109 for the warranty.
I said oh no it's $849 + tax out the door and this warranty is included.
I told him the US rep for MB said so on TB.
I told him the salesman reduced the price of a LMII and added the warranty which then ended up being $599 + tax out the door.
He looked it up in the system and said oh.
Then he said let me see if the system will let me do this.
It did.
He said he was going to email MB because he may have been over charging folks.