Minor ii-V-I in Jazz... WTH?

[Matthew_84]

That’d be awesome. Thank you! Please take your time, no need to rush. I won’t be home for several hours.

 

[GastonD]

A very short and simplified summary of Hubbard's explanation is that in minor ii-V-i one chooses the version of the chord from the version of the minor scale that differs the most in sound from the chord that takes the same place in the major progression. Therefore, it will dictate whether any of the three will come from the natural, melodic or harmonic minor scales.

 

[IamGroot]

C Major

C Melodic Minor

C Harmonic Minor

 

[glocke1]

It is a great American art form. Really. Shame it is not more popular, except among we few die hards who seek it out, though many foreigners are fans. Kids are oblivious to it.

Im really amazed at the fact that the overwhelming vast majority of musicians i know are completely ignorant of jazz and have no interest in learning to play it in even a rudimentary fashion. Sure, theres the odd guitarist that can play "So What", but thats all I run into for the most part.

Whats especially shocking is that Im coming from the jam band world, where supposedly improv is what its all about.

While I in no way would ever try to pass myself off as a legit jazz bassist, I at least try to learn how to function in a rudimentary sense in that genre.

 

[IamGroot]

And to complete the picture is if started on one of the minor modes of the Major Diatonic scale. What you get is a minir chord on the V in each case.

A Natural Minor

D Dorian

E phrygian
.

 

[IamGroot]

Im really amazed at the fact that the overwhelming vast majority of musicians i know are completely ignorant of jazz and have no interest in learning to play it in even a rudimentary fashion. Sure, theres the odd guitarist that can play "So What", but thats all I run into for the most part.

Whats especially shocking is that Im coming from the jam band world, where supposedly improv is what its all about.

While I in no way would ever try to pass myself off as a legit jazz bassist, I at least try to learn how to function in a rudimentary sense in that genre.

I feel your pain. BTW, Do you hear the "Special chord" in "So What"

 

[foal30]

This may clear up some things.

The ii and IV are both sub dominant and want to go to a dominant chord. So they can sub for each other.

The V and vii are both dominant and want to go to the tonic I chord. They can and do sub for each other.

Keeping this all major key.....
Good ole boy bands like the I-IV-V7-I progression.
Jazz will like the ii-V7-I progression.
Both resolve to the I tonic chord.
The ii introduces the minor ii sound into the mix.
Jazz likes minor and flat keys because of the horns, sax, etc, that are used in jazz.

Offered for what it is worth.

I are often unable to differentiate between the ii or the IV.

It is most likely because , as you say, they point towards the V

 

[foal30]

Thanks @foal30, that helps!





Thanks @Spin Doctor and @GastonD! Do either of your recommendations cover the various chords/scales and substitutions to covering the minor ii-V-I?

I agree that to get into all of the cracks and crevices of it, I’ll need to read a fairly thorough theory book/course with examples; train my ear to hear to hear the different variations as I’m playing along; and learn a lot of different tunes where it’s implemented in its various approaches.

I haven’t dug into any of books/courses yet regarding the minor ii-V-I, but some resources I have looked into seem to pretty much state one way of playing it as if that is how it’s played, though to me, it seems like there are many ways to play it.

In my limited expierence
It is Best Practice to say yes "there are many ways to play it"

As in my first posts there was 2 examples then 2 examples of resolution that don't use the m/maj7 chord.

Here is something a really great trumpet player told me
" it's harmonic minor because harmony is the chords bro....but it's melodic minor because I want you to play some melody..."

That might not be a very good example written down but it's def been something for me to think about.

 

[foal30]

Let's go backwards and say

"We make these chords from C Harmonic minor"

And Someone has told me to play or think about a certain melodic minor scale
********
Dm7(b5) - Fm maj7

This triad is F - Ab - C Good or bad or don't know

G7(b9) - Abm maj7

This triad is Ab - Cb - Eb Good or bad or don't know

Cm maj7 triad is C - Eb- G obviously good

******

After all that typing I don't know if this post is helpful so it's almost certainly Jazz

 

[foal30]

A very short and simplified summary of Hubbard's explanation is that in minor ii-V-i one chooses the version of the chord from the version of the minor scale that differs the most in sound from the chord that takes the same place in the major progression. Therefore, it will dictate whether any of the three will come from the natural, melodic or harmonic minor scales.

Thanks
That's an intellectual approach I had not heard of.

 

[glocke1]

I feel your pain. BTW, Do you hear the "Special chord" in "So What"

I'll have to go back and listen. I had to google what you are talking about since Im not really as immersed in this stuff as I'd like to be..Once I saw what it was I did remember sitting in improv classes years ago and the instructor bringing it up..at least I think I remember.

 

[Sparkl]

So, I’m a bit of a newb in Jazz, and I’m no music theory major...

From what I understand the Major ii-V-I is pretty straightforward. The progression is diatonic and based off of the natural major (Ionian) scale. The ii would be the Dorian mode of the root scale, and the V would be the Mixolydian mode of the root scale.

However, the Minor ii-V-I seems to be a bit of a mess. I’ve read a few TB threads and read a few other sources and there seems to be many ways to play this progression. A lot of examples actually seem to modulate keys for every chord... WTH is going on?

I’m assuming there’s no standard way to play it, and everyone plays it however they want for the song.

Is there any way someone could list the various ways it can be played, and maybe list which ways are the most common, or recommended for a jazz newb to start with?

Thanks in advance.

The II-V-I cadence in a minor key isn't as straightforward as it is in a major key. I for one, would argue that this specific cadence isn't diatonic in a minor key. And it isn't. The V of a minor isn't really a dominant chord, diatonically speaking it is a minor7 chord. So the correct diatonical cadence in let's say C minor7 would be - Dmin7b5 Gmin7 Cmin7.

Jazz doesn't like the Minor chord in a V position though. So basically what it does is it substitutes the V chord with a dominant chord so now you have a cadence of (in C min) Dmin7b5, G7 and Cmin7.

What gives? It is really simple. When you arrive at the V of a minor, the V starts to act in a little bit different role. You see, the only thing that differs a min7 chord from a dom chord is in the 3rd. In order to get the dominant chord you need to raise the 3rd to a major 3rd and voila - a dominant chord. The 3rd of V is also the 7th of the mother minor. So when you raise it, you consequently modify the minor scale into a harmonic minor. That's why a ton of jazz licks of II-V-I in minor have that specific major 7 interval in minor even though it is not supposed to be there - diatonically speaking.

Especially gipsy jazz music is filled and rich with this.
Therefore, basically anytime you see a dominant chord in a minor tune, you almost always think of it as harmonic minor.

Hope this helped.

Edit: Forgot to mention that for the same reason, harmony players like to add a b9 to the dominant chord they play in minor, to really express the harmonic minor component, making a dom7b9 a very common chord in minor.

 

[Don Kasper]

BTW, Do you hear the "Special chord" in "So What"

???
I've never heard this term used in relation to the chords of "So What".
("Are We There Yet?...")
Thanks!

 

[Whousedtoplay]

I've never heard this term used in relation to the chords of "So What".

You could pay only $7.00 (on sale currently) and learn about it. drool

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"I created a Invalid Link Removed devoted to this special chord voicing so that anyone who devotes some time to it will not only have a handle on its construction, which is not complex, but will have utmost confidence when it comes to injecting some flavorful “juice” in almost any song of his or her choice."

 

[Matthew_84]

This seems to be a fairly straight forward explanation, discussing both the diatonic harmonic minor approach, as well as the melodic minor approach, with its various modulations:

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They also have an accompanying video:

 

[Whousedtoplay]

This seems to be a fairly straight forward explanation, discussing both the diatonic harmonic minor approach, as well as the melodic minor approach, with its various modulations:

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You see how easy it is.

 

[Matthew_84]

You see how easy it is.

LOL, it's still really confusing!

From that page, the three Melodic Minor Scales (though it seems like the V is more of an Altered Scale) is the more common way to play, but what if someone throws in a iii, IV, or VI chord? I'm assuming one would take that out of the Harmonic Minor Scale?

 

[IamGroot]

???
I've never heard this term used in relation to the chords of "So What".
("Are We There Yet?...")
Thanks!

Don & Everyone else,
For you, the Em11 voicing is free.
So What chord - Wikipedia

 

[Matthew_84]

I'm still a little confused about the three-scale Melodic Minor approach.

If you do as @foal30 and the link I just posted says, with the following chords/scales, you don't get quite get the right notes with the V chord.

ii chord = Dm7(b5) from the F Melodic Minor = D - E - F - G - Ab - Bb - C

V chord = G7(b9) from Ab Melodic Minor = G - Ab - Bb (*) - Cb - Db - Eb - F

I chord = Cm(Maj7) from C Melodic Minor = C - D - Eb - F - G - A - B

(*) The 3rd scale degree of this G7(b9) chord is a Bb, which would make the chord a minor chord, not a Major chord. It seems that to dodge around this problem, people don't really use the 7th mode of the Ab Melodic Minor scale, instead they use the G Altered Scale (G - Ab - Bb - B - Db - Eb - F) and focus more on the G - B - F - Ab for the chord tones.

So, if that's the case, why do people say to use the G7(b9) from the Ab Melodic Minor at all? Why not just say use the G Altered Scale?

 

[Don Kasper]

Don & Everyone else,
For you, the Em11 voicing is free.
So What chord - Wikipedia

Oh - that chord/voicing?!
I always heard it functioning as a rootless V7,9sus chord ("A7,9sus") resolving to the (i min7 add11) Dmin7 add11.
But that's me...
Thanks.