Minor ii-V-I in Jazz... WTH?

[Whousedtoplay]

Harmonic major seems contrived to me. Or perhaps unnecessary.

I'm with you. Let's write a message to Rimsky-Korsakov.

No need to go abroad in search of new scales to slay.

Yes, no need to go abroad in search for new scales.
We got way too many old scales (also) from "abroad".

 

[Groove Master]

It's only about the use of "interchangeable".

Gee the hollow police is among us.... You missed the point again.
I think someone needs to take a walk outside. Let see what you'll come up with this easy one....

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Gee the hollow police is among us.... You missed the point again.
I think someone needs to take a walk outside. Let see what you'll come up with this easy one....

I, as a less educated musician, say,
“The minor scale forms are interchangeable,” you, as a highly educated musician and an author of very informative and knowledgeable books like, Groove 101, don’t like that term.
I got your point.
I’d rather hear about your recovery. I wish you all the best.
Your comments are always right on target - succinctly precise. Thank you.

P.S. I am following your advice and taking my Golden retriever for a walk.

 

[IamGroot]

I remember something a very wise jazz pianist once said:

"Music theory is a tool we use to compensate for deficiencies in our ability to understand the music being played".

I personally find theory both very interesting and very helpful and I am spending a lot of time offline on theory issues (and sharing PMs with others.).

But somewhere out there, there is a piano player or guitarist who is going to bend the rules. Maybe play a "wrong" chord just to see whether you re playing by rote or have real ears. You can't throw up the red flag if he plays a dim chord for the ii on a ii V i .

Just trying to put some perspective on the fine details of theory.

Edit: Theory is the servant of music, not the other way around. Word of the Day: mierenneuker

 

[IamGroot]

So which scales can go over a minor 7 chord (ie the ii in ii V i)?:

Clipped from my new spreadsheet. The first number = the scale Mode Number

1 Minor pentatonic scale 1
4 Hirajoshi scale per Speed, Kostka and Payne 4
1 Blues Minor Six Tone 1
2 Dorian mode 2
3 Phrygian mode 3
6 Aeolian mode 6
2 Melodic Minor (Sus b9, Phrygian Nat 6, Dorian b2) 2
4 Harmonic Minor (Dorian #4) 4
3 Harmonic Major scale 3
2 Double Harmonic Major (Lydian#2#6) 2
2 Enigmatic Ascending Scale 2
2 Enigmatic Descending Scale 2
6 Enigmatic Descending Scale 6
4 Neapolitan Minor Scale (Phyrigian Harmonic Minor) 4
2 Persian Scale 2
1 Ukranian Dorian 1
3 Ukranian Dorian 3
Octatonic scale (Half/Whole) 1,3, 5 or 7
Octatonic scale (Whole / Half) 2,4,6,or 8

 

[mambo4]

I cast fireball on the 4 Hirajoshi... I got a 12

"Music theory is a tool we use to compensate for deficiencies in our ability to understand the music being played".

Brings to mind tunes like Giant Steps or Stratosphunk or 12 tone serial compositions.
Those are not tunes the I will ever "understand" on a gut level.
The theory behind is interesting, sure, but doesn't make it appeal to my ears.

 

[Spin Doctor]

Harmonic Minor I can see the logic behind, but Harmonic major seems contrived to me. Or perhaps unnecessary. If I'm in C major, and the melody has an A flat, I'd simply play A flat instead of A, and consider it an accidental.

No need to go abroad in search of new scales to slay.

Well... my take on that is, Harmonic Major is no more "contrived" than any other scale you are currently "OK" with. Harmonic Major, Harmonic Minor, Melodic Minor and all the ones people seem to think are hip are all synthetic scales. They are all arrived at by doing what you just said. You change one note in the major or minor scale or some mode of them. To me, they are just a source of different tonalities for soloing, so it's not that big a deal conceptually.

If you are a musician, who is in a situation where you are expected to be creative on the spot, being aware of more vocabulary is better than not being aware of it. The trick is to internalize the scales you choose to work with, so that they show up in your playing. I doubt anyone is gonna know all the scales the Groot has on that list. But you can be proficient at one, two or three of them and be able to open up a huge range of possibilities.

Again, to me, (and maybe me, only) that's the point. It's not to rattle off scales for the sheer sake of it. If you're not into that as a muscian, then there's no need to concern yourself with it.

 

[Spin Doctor]

Brings to mind tunes like Giant Steps

Giant Steps is just an etude used to explore harmonic movement in thirds. Coltrane turned it into a song by limiting the shifting key centers to just a few. It's not that hard, once you get it, but nothing is hard if you know the answers to the questions.

BTW, Jaco's Havona is an exercise turned into a song also.

 

[mambo4]

being aware of more vocabulary is better than not being aware of it.

Fair point. As my fantasy football bass instructor Anthony Wellington says, "knowing something is better than not knowing something."

Sometimes I catch myself preaching ignorance, which is bad.

 

[Spin Doctor]

Fair point. As my fantasy football bass instructor Anthony Wellington says, "knowing something is better than not knowing something."

Sometimes I catch myself preaching ignorance, which is bad.

I deleted my other response which once I re-read it, seemed unnecessary. I will say that I guess it only matters if you're into it.

 

[IamGroot]

Well... my take on that is, Harmonic Major is no more "contrived" than any other scale you are currently "OK" with. Harmonic Major, Harmonic Minor, Melodic Minor and all the ones people seem to think are hip are all synthetic scales. They are all arrived at by doing what you just said. You change one note in the major or minor scale or some mode of them. To me, they are just a source of different tonalities for soloing, so it's not that big a deal conceptually.

If you are a musician, who is in a situation where you are expected to be creative on the spot, being aware of more vocabulary is better than not being aware of it. The trick is to internalize the scales you choose to work with, so that they show up in your playing. I doubt anyone is gonna know all the scales the Groot has on that list. But you can be proficient at one, two or three of them and be able to open up a huge range of possibilities.

Again, to me, (and maybe me, only) that's the point. It's not to rattle off scales for the sheer sake of it. If you're not into that as a muscian, then there's no need to concern yourself with it.

The cool thing was I didn't know all of those scales until I put my program together. There is not just one harmonic scale, there are at least three. I doubt I am going to be using two of them anytime soon, but I know what my options are. It was an educational exercise. If someone asks for all the scales have all the notes in chord "X", whether its a Dom 7 or a m7 b5 #5 13, I can tell him all the options out of a catalog of about 200 scales.

 

[foal30]

I sincerely, hope you are right. In my everyday experiences, music that may be classified as high art is rare as can be. Jazz has given me and my father satisfaction and joy. I would be hard pressed to list friends or relatives who have a real awareness of jazz, aside from a few jazz musicians I have privilege to play and hobnob with. sorry, getting off topic.

Might have been O/T but I liked to hear a personal reflection on something you and your family obviously hold dear.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Word of the Day: mierenneuker

You forgot to add "Dutch" Word of the day.

Dm7(b5) think F melodic minor

Just a few notes.


The locrian scale is the scale to play over a half-diminished chord.

Let's take a look at F melodic minor.

Pay attention to that E.

Hmm...

What's more, from "Jazz Harmony" by Barrie Nettles and Richard Graf.

In our Dmin7(b5) case, avoid Eb.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Giant Steps is just an etude used to explore harmonic movement in thirds.

I like Giant Steps as a song.

 

[foal30]

You forgot to add "Dutch" Word of the day.



Just a few notes.


The locrian scale is the scale to play over a half-diminished chord.
View attachment 3115902

Let's take a look at F melodic minor.

Pay attention to that E.
View attachment 3115903


Hmm...

What's more, from "Jazz Harmony" by Barrie Nettles and Richard Graf.

In our Dmin7(b5) case, avoid Eb.

View attachment 3115909

Use the VI mode of Melodic minor
In America this called "Locrian#2"

F melodic minor - D Locrian#2

D E F G Ab Bb C

Is this helpful?

 

[foal30]

A good example was used earlier in this thread by Grove Master when spoke of "All The Things You Are"

Btw I really like that tunes chords , such a great progression.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Is this helpful?

But of course it is very helpful to a lot of our TB members. Thank you for your participation.

"All The Things You Are"

Btw I really like that tunes chords , such a great progression.

There was a cool thread about that song in the "serious" DB forum .
4 Progressive Bass Lines for "All The Things You Are"

A good example was used earlier in this thread by Grove Master

Groove Master is a highly-knowledgeable theoretician, musician, bass player, teacher, author of excellent books for bass players, etc...
His comments are always precisely accurate.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

In America this called "Locrian#2"

Now, I can’t go to bed till I figure out the name for that scale in Texas.
I need to ask IamGroot what they call it in Ukraine
Maybe, somebody help me what it’s called in Norway, France, Germany...drool

 

[IamGroot]

C D Eb F Gb Ab Bb?.

If you take the Locrian scale and raise the 2nd degree from a flat 2 to a Natural 2 you get the 6th mode of the Melodic Minor (which is the Aeolian scale with a flat 5). Levine calls this a Locrian #2 because the 2nd has been raised, others like Wikipedia call it the Locrian Natural 2 since it has a nat 2. - Confusing, no?. Some call it the half diminished scale.

I call it C D Eb F Gb Ab Bb and a nasty TB theory brawl waiting to happen.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

C D Eb F Gb Ab Bb

No, no, and No.

Our dear TB member has spelled it as D E F G Ab Bb C

F melodic minor: F G Ab Bb C D E F.

Now.
Let's take a look at our very recent thread about Melodic Minor.
It's all been said at TB already.

Melodic minor mode? (Music theory)

For those who are interested in MM modes, I would highly recommend John Goldsby's column/s at Bass

Jazz Concepts: Melodic Minor Scales & Modes

Some other sources for those who like to read.

vi mode of the C melodic minor scale.

Also, from here:
Melodic minor mode? (Music theory)

But...
Sibelius from Suomi; otherwise, known as Finland; therefore, check the spelling of Lochrian(?drool)

Some call it the half diminished scale.

Once again, John Goldsby's column/s to start.

Jazz Concepts: Diminished Chords & Scales
Jazz Concepts: The Half-Whole Diminished Scale


P.S. Please let me know if anybody else needs more information about the Melodic Minor mode know in "America" as "Locrian #2?
I'll be glad to help.