Minor ii-V-I in Jazz... WTH?

[Groove Master]

The recent posts by GrooveMaster and Whousedtoplay are pretty on track as far as minor scale theor


This (and the follow-up discussions) is spot on.

I learned most of my practical theory playing real book gigs with an much older jazz pianist who explained that there were lots of options/alterations in the minor ii V i . So I asked which one he used and he said whatever he felt at the time.

So much for theory. Just listen.

I am doing a big restudy of minor chord theory but that is for classical theory class.

Actually, knowing some of the "under the hood" stuff about the minor harmony is a blast and very useful.

Think about the bridge of All the things for example. It is the perfect application of the VI mode of the minor melodic scale over that min7(b5) that resolve to the I Major. Or the use of 3 different minor melodic scales over a ii-v-i minor for a sequence of motifs. Or replacing the tritone dominant etc...

 

[IamGroot]

Wasnt dissing theory knowledge, just pointing out the theory on ii V i changes takes a back seat to what the piano player or guitarist chooses for voicings on the gig. My fingers can find the note.

Transcribing bass and bass balalaika right now for cossack folk songs. They do love their minor keys.

 

[Spin Doctor]

Wasnt dissing theory knowledge, just pointing out the theory on ii V i changes takes a back seat to what the piano player or guitarist chooses for voicings on the gig. My fingers can find the note.

I think it's more a matter of knowing and internalizing all (or many of) the various options available to you where minor changes are concerned and THEN you can "do what you want". Most people aren't just hearing that stuff with no understanding. although I guess that's possible over time.

There is a lot more variety with shifting tensions available with minor than the standard major progressions. Theory is still in the front seat, because you need that to realize and understand the options. That book I mentioned, really opens up the door for understanding minor progressions. Minor is way more involved than major and a crapton more involved than people think. Having said all that, I guess, if you know what it sounds like, you can just play what you want, as you said, as long as you can execute it.

If everyone can keep up with what's happening during the tune, then it's great... As a bassist you only need to worry about support when the melody makers are going on their journey. If everybody tried to be like "all jazz" at the same time, then it's a mess...

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Actually, knowing some of the "under the hood" stuff about the minor harmony is a blast and very useful.

Think about the bridge of All the things for example. It is the perfect application of the VI mode of the minor melodic scale over that min7(b5) that resolve to the I Major. Or the use of 3 different minor melodic scales over a ii-v-i minor for a sequence of motifs. Or replacing the tritone dominant etc...

Would you prefer E or Eb with Dmin7(b5) when C minor is out Tonic?
I sense your, “It depends...”

 

[Groove Master]

Would you prefer E or Eb with Dmin7(b5) when C minor is out Tonic?
I sense your, “It depends...”

Nope but it does depend on the musical phrase. D-E-F could be though as a phrase that implies a root and the minor third approached by a half-step instead of a D minor melodic scale ;-)

 

[socialleper]

It is a great American art form. Really. Shame it is not more popular, except among we few die hards who seek it out, though many foreigners are fans. Kids are oblivious to it.

I don't know if I would agree with this. I thought jazz was dead as the Dodo until I asked about it and discovered that there is a large cross section of younger players doing jazz related music. Then I watched some live videos and saw the size of the crowds these unknown-to-me artists pulled at some very nice venues. For a genre that isn't on pop-culture's radar it certainly seems more popular and profitable than what I normally listen to.
It isn't the 70s, so sure, there isn't as much focus on jazz anymore. However, people make the mistake of thinking that the radio actually matters. It doesn't. Pop culture used to dominate the zeitgeist, but the internet has created an avenue for music discovery that makes pop culture irrelevant.

 

[bassliner50]

I don't know if I would agree with this. I thought jazz was dead as the Dodo until I asked about it and discovered that there is a large cross section of younger players doing jazz related music. Then I watched some live videos and saw the size of the crowds these unknown-to-me artists pulled at some very nice venues. For a genre that isn't on pop-culture's radar it certainly seems more popular and profitable than what I normally listen to.
It isn't the 70s, so sure, there isn't as much focus on jazz anymore. However, people make the mistake of thinking that the radio actually matters. It doesn't. Pop culture used to dominate the zeitgeist, but the internet has created an avenue for music discovery that makes pop culture irrelevant.

I sincerely, hope you are right. In my everyday experiences, music that may be classified as high art is rare as can be. Jazz has given me and my father satisfaction and joy. I would be hard pressed to list friends or relatives who have a real awareness of jazz, aside from a few jazz musicians I have privilege to play and hobnob with. sorry, getting off topic.

 

[MalcolmAmos]

I think your problem is the same as mine in trying to learn jazz. Many of the songs use the 2-5-1 for PART of their chord progression but then go into all sorts of other chord changes.
So a jazz tune may start out as A-D-G for instance standard 2-5-1 but then it goes through other chords.

Why other chords? The songwriter wants to harmonize the melody and harmony line and to do that he inserts harmonizing melody notes into the chords being used. So he inserts melody notes into his movement chords, in doing so he gets .......

...... those "fancy chords" in jazz. Why mess up the movement 2-5-1 has established, why not just insert a harmonizing note, as an extension, into the movement chord? One note per measure brings harmony. Adding a 9, 11 or 13 may accomplish what is needed.

It's all based upon harmonization or finding like notes in the melody and bass line.

We've been dealing with minor progressions this sharing works the same for major or minor key choices. Just something to keep in mind. For example; the sus chord could add a 2 or 4 if needed...

Some time spent with back cycling may add value. Invalid Link Removed

Then if you must there are inversions of all of the above.

Happy trails.

 

[obimark]

Why other chords? The songwriter wants to harmonize the melody and harmony line and to do that he inserts harmonizing melody notes into the chords being used. So he inserts melody notes into his movement chords, in doing so he gets .......

...... those "fancy chords" in jazz. Why mess up the movement 2-5-1 has established, why not just insert a harmonizing note, as an extension, into the movement chord? One note per measure brings harmony. Adding a 9, 11 or 13 may accomplish what is needed.

It's all based upon harmonization or finding like notes in the melody and bass line.

We've been dealing with minor progressions this sharing works the same for major or minor key choices. Just something to keep in mind. For example; the sus chord could add a 2 or 4 if needed...

Some time spent with back cycling may add value. Invalid Link Removed

Then if you must there are inversions of all of the above.

Happy trails.

Exactly- this is why Jazz is so hard for me to wrap my head around, SO many chord changes... no set pattern half the time.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

the VII mode of the major scale is also a min7(b5) and the only difference would be the alteration of the sixth compared the minor harmonic mode.

As we all know, our TB forum knowledge exceeds one from some composer's forum; therefore,
let's take a look at the Harmonic Major scale.

From here:
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Now let's try to re-harmonize that Harmonic Major scale.

Now, we can easily play that E note with Dmin7(b5).

 

[Groove Master]

As we all know, our TB forum knowledge exceeds one from some composer's forum; therefore,
let's take a look at the Harmonic Major scale.

View attachment 3108918

From here:
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View attachment 3108923

Now let's try to re-harmonize that Harmonic Major scale.

View attachment 3108926

Now, we can easily play that E note with Dmin7(b5).

Sure you can, that is another alternative.

Don't forget that this scale doesn't represent any minor or major tonalities

 

[Spin Doctor]

Don't forget that this scale doesn't represent any minor or major tonalities

Can you clarify what this statement means?

 

[Groove Master]

Can you clarify what this statement means?

The major scale defines a major tonality because the most definitive sequence of chords to support a major key is the IImin7-V9-I Maj7.

Idem for a minor key when the minor harmonic scale support the definitive sequence of chords iimin7(b5)-v7(b9)-I min.

As you can see all the notes from the chords come from the major scale in major key and the minor harmonic scale for the minor keys.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Don't forget that this scale doesn't represent any minor or major tonalities

Here are my simple knowledge points about that scale.
It's a major scale with a lowered sixth degree (harmonic major.)

Many many years ago, there were no Harmonic or Melodic minors, just Natural "pure" minor.

 

[Groove Master]

Here are my simple knowledge points about that scale.
It's a major scale with a lowered sixth degree (harmonic major.)

Many many years ago, there were no Harmonic or Melodic minors, just Natural "pure" minor.

In practice it is useful when an Ab note occurs in the melody in C major for example. You keep all the notes of C but change A for Ab. You can voice the dominant G7 as a G13(b9). You then can use the major harmonic or the dominant 8-notes scale which is the diminished h-w.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

These scales are NOT interchangeable.

Here is an excerpt from "Berklee - Jazz Composition. Theory and Practice" talking about three forms of the Minor scale.

(P.S. WUTP is not smart enough to create any new terms.)

 

[IamGroot]

Here is an excerpt from "Berklee - Jazz Composition. Theory and Practice" talking about three forms of the Minor scale.

(P.S. WUTP is not smart enough to create any new terms.)

View attachment 3112880

As I said back in Post #61 (substitute "Pianist" for "Composer".

Keep your ears open and ready.

 

[mambo4]

Harmonic Minor I can see the logic behind, but Harmonic major seems contrived to me. Or perhaps unnecessary. If I'm in C major, and the melody has an A flat, I'd simply play A flat instead of A, and consider it an accidental.

No need to go abroad in search of new scales to slay.

 

[Groove Master]

Here is an excerpt from "Berklee - Jazz Composition. Theory and Practice" talking about three forms of the Minor scale.

(P.S. WUTP is not smart enough to create any new terms.)

View attachment 3112880

What is your point here beside putting something out of context and bring confusion to the thread? Please explain...

Because the harmonization of the minor melodic scale is totally irrelevant here.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

What is your point here beside putting something out of context and bring confusion to the thread? Please explain...

Because the harmonization of the minor melodic scale is totally irrelevant here.

It's only about the use of "interchangeable".