NBD: Kiesel IC5 :-(

[Mark76]

Yeah, Bliff, if that's even your real name , why so hesitant to share visual and audio documentary evidence of these defects with the rest of us? Are you hideously ugly or something?

More seriously, a video of you demonstrating the flaws of the instrument would give you more leverage in your dispute with C/K than just saying "I really really hate the sound it makes".

 

[NecroticImbecil]

Agreed. The very reason I said I want an apology. Or at least Carvins explanation.
Have a wonderful day.
Tom

I'm sorry.

 

[funkinbottom]

Well so far, I'm not sure what Keisel needs to explain.
They sold a non returnable bass to someone. It was on the website, and the buyer acknowledged that it was not returnable or refundable before the purchase.
Buyer doesn't like the bass for whatever reason, writes an email and calls asking to return a bass and get a refund.
Keisel restates their no return no refund policy that the buyer agreed to before purchase, but will take the bass back for warranty work for the next 5 years, per the terms agreed to before purchase.

I read the entire thread, and I feel that @flojob has summed it up perfectly. Post #168, if you haven't read entire thread.

OP knowingly purchased a non refundable, non returnable, no trial period bass. It was stated he could send it in, and if something under warranty was broken/wrong they would honor their warranty. Somehow that doesn't seem to be acceptable to op. Yeah I know, he said they hung up on him, and that is just plain wrong. No excuse for that at all. But, customer service aside, one should know better than to buy a nonreturnable instrument without being able play it first.

Bliff, why won’t you post a video or some sound clips of the bass? I’m really curious to hear what’s going on, as are others, and we might be able to help.

Yeah, I kinda wonder if the bass actually sounds ok and op just has a serious case of buyers remorse.

I'm sorry bliff was was hung up on, but this one's on op. A tough lesson for sure, don't buy a bass that clearly states right there in black and white no trial, no return.

 

[theinfamous]

I'm here to defend kiesel. I own two carvins, and they aren't perfect, but they definitely don't deserve the hate people are piling on, especially from people who have not played them.

Is there a particular reason op had to have that particular bass? Did he not want to wait? The no return policy would turn me right off an in stock instrument. (Which as has been stated multiple times, was because of the finish, which makes sense to me)

I feel for op, because that is a lot of money to pay for a bass you dont like, but I doubt anything on kiesels end was done with truly malicious intent.

 

[Bass Viking]

And that in itself is reason not to buy (or to be very, very wary buying) something from Kiesel.
No return/no refund for an off-the-shelf new bass.

Interestingly their website (for "In Stock Guitars") says "These are new instruments, and are fully covered by Kiesel Guitars' 5 Year Warranty and 10-Day No Risk Trial."
Only specific instruments have a note "NO 10-DAY TRIAL OR RETURNS ON THIS INSTRUMENT"
So yes, it is stated. And in fact, because it's only on specific instruments, it says to me "we think this instrument sucks, and we'd like to stick you with it."
No Kiesel for me, thanks, for many reasons.

Oh puh-lease. The in stock stuff is as well made as anything else. Just because it has non-returnable options doesn’t mean it’s garbage. They know it’s non-refundable before they even start building.

 

[gumbynotpokey]

Oh puh-lease. The in stock stuff is as well made as anything else. Just because it has non-returnable options doesn’t mean it’s garbage. They know it’s non-refundable before they even start building.

Not to highjack this thread, but actually to keep us on topic, I'll say this. The in-stock is for those buyers that don't want to wait 10 weeks for their build to arrive. Simple. Some of those builds have returnable options, and some have options that are not returnable. Most in-stock instruments were built for the in-stock section, and the minority are returns or endorser loaners. The idea that everything that is non-returnable in the in-stock section is non-returnable because it is known to be junk is silly.

Back in 2012 I rolled the dice and ordered a new custom shop build with a non-returnable option. I was more afraid of the top being a look I wouldn't dig than I was of a bad build. When I popped the case, the top was pleasing to my eye and I was greatly relieved. Ordering a non-returnable instrument isn't for everyone. In my case (no pun intended) I have never thought of returning this for one moment. She sounds amazing.

 

[Bass Viking]

Not only is that great looking bass Gumby but it sounds really good too (I’ve seen your video). I wouldn’t buy a non-returnable in stock Kiesel myself, but I can see someone who lives near the showroom going there to play it and subsequently making the purchase.

I bought an Icon years ago when they were introduced. I loved it! It’s a different animal from the OP’s Icon though. Different woods, different electronics, and doesn’t have stainless steel frets. Speaking of SS, my Suhr guitar sports them and I like ‘em. To each their own.

 

[MordBass]

Not only is that great looking bass Gumby but it sounds really good too (I’ve seen your video). I wouldn’t buy a non-returnable in stock Kiesel myself, but I can see someone who lives near the showroom going there to play it and subsequently making the purchase.

I bought an Icon years ago when they were introduced. I loved it! It’s a different animal from the OP’s Icon though. Different woods, different electronics, and doesn’t have stainless steel frets. Speaking of SS, my Suhr guitar sports them and I like ‘em. To each their own.

You raise a very interesting point... so please, correct me if I'm wrong.
Kiesel does have a showroom for those that are in the area, the in-stock basses are there, and available for play, correct?
People play them, and then can order that model with custom options for themselves?
Soooo if this bass was allegedly not returnable due to the finish... does that mean that it wasnt put out in their showroom? Because a bunch of people randomly taking it off the wall and testing it would certainly put more wear on the instrument than one owner receiving it in a case, and then testing it.
Also, do they have any distinction on their site of what is a demo model vs what is actually a brand new instrument?

 

[Bass Viking]

You raise a very interesting point... so please, correct me if I'm wrong.
Kiesel does have a showroom for those that are in the area, the in-stock basses are there, and available for play, correct?
People play them, and then can order that model with custom options for themselves?
Soooo if this bass was allegedly not returnable due to the finish... does that mean that it wasnt put out in their showroom? Because a bunch of people randomly taking it off the wall and testing it would certainly put more wear on the instrument than one owner receiving it in a case, and then testing it.
Also, do they have any distinction on their site of what is a demo model vs what is actually a brand new instrument?

I don’t know how it works with the raw tone finish. I have seen some in stock models listed as loaners with scratches, etc.

 

[MordBass]

I don’t know how it works with the raw tone finish. I have seen some in stock models listed as loaners with scratches, etc.

Im just curious because if the finish is the reason for no returns.... I would certainly hope this bass was kept in its case and out of the hands of potential buyers. Otherwise it's a demo model and theres no reason for the return policy to not exist for it.

 

[rashrader]

Im just curious because if the finish is the reason for no returns.... I would certainly hope this bass was kept in its case and out of the hands of potential buyers. Otherwise it's a demo model and theres no reason for the return policy to not exist for it.

This is an excellent point.

 

[Bass Viking]

Im just curious because if the finish is the reason for no returns.... I would certainly hope this bass was kept in its case and out of the hands of potential buyers. Otherwise it's a demo model and theres no reason for the return policy to not exist for it.

Maybe Bliff can tell us if the bass arrived with signs of wear on it?

 

[LBS-bass]

You raise a very interesting point... so please, correct me if I'm wrong.
Kiesel does have a showroom for those that are in the area, the in-stock basses are there, and available for play, correct?
People play them, and then can order that model with custom options for themselves?
Soooo if this bass was allegedly not returnable due to the finish... does that mean that it wasnt put out in their showroom? Because a bunch of people randomly taking it off the wall and testing it would certainly put more wear on the instrument than one owner receiving it in a case, and then testing it.
Also, do they have any distinction on their site of what is a demo model vs what is actually a brand new instrument?

Having worked in a music store, I would speculate that the point of the no-return policy for these instruments would be to avoid the situation in which someone receives an instrument with some finish issues due to showroom play and then decides they don't want it, not the reverse.

 

[MordBass]

Having worked in a music store, I would speculate that the point of the no-return policy for these instruments would be to avoid the situation in which someone receives an instrument with some finish issues due to showroom play and then decides they don't want it, not the reverse.

Yea but if its new, there shouldnt be any finish issues. Id assume that the no return policy is to ensure that somebody doesnt buy it and then add some finish issues during testing and decide they dont like it. As long as it comes back in the same condition it left.... all should be well.

 

[LBS-bass]

Yea but if its new, there shouldnt be any finish issues. Id assume that the no return policy is to ensure that somebody doesnt buy it and then add some finish issues during testing and decide they dont like it. As long as it comes back in the same condition it left.... all should be well.

The no-return policy applies to instruments with a vulnerable finish, so I'd suspect if there's play in the showroom those issues could be expected to turn up. But yes, I agree with you that it's an aggressive policy.

To assure things get returned in the same condition they left in, the store would have to document any problems that were there before the instrument went out the door, which gets into issues of "you knew it was blemished (customer)" vs. "you knew it might have some play wear (seller)." if it were up to me, I'd be tempted to just not bother with those finish options at all.

Another thing that used to happen in the store was instruments being "purchased" for a gig and then returned, amounting to a free rental. They weren't always returned in great shape, either, so some stores would develop policies that were meant to discourage this, usually a restock fee. But that would apply to any purchase, not just something with a particular finish.

 

[MordBass]

The no-return policy applies to instruments with a vulnerable finish, so I'd suspect if there's play in the showroom those issues could be expected to turn up. But yes, I agree with you that it's an aggressive policy.

To assure things get returned in the same condition they left in, the store would have to document any problems that were there before the instrument went out the door, which gets into issues of "you knew it was blemished (customer)" vs. "you knew it might have some play wear (seller)." if it were up to me, I'd be tempted to just not bother with those finish options at all.

Another thing that used to happen in the store was instruments being "purchased" for a gig and then returned, amounting to a free rental. They weren't always returned in great shape, either, so some stores would develop policies that were meant to discourage this, usually a restock fee. But that would apply to any purchase, not just something with a particular finish.

I agree with you 100%. I feel like with Kiesel having a showroom that exists mainly for the purposes of testing models before ordering a unique version.... any bass in that showroom amounts to a demo model and it looks like theyre presenting them as such on their site.

 

[Bliff Curton]

Due to serious health issues, waiting 10 months for a build was not an option.

Bass Viking,
I dont see how the burden of proof falls on me to appease your curiosities. Especially when you are a Kiesel shill who lives on the Kiesel forum, becrying any of us TB’ers who voice our unresolved issues with Kiesel.
To me, its not worth the $25 to purchase the TSSR — TS adapter I need to give you an audio demonstration.
Sorry that you cant imagine a company like Kiesel having QC and CS issues even though I listed at KieselBBS a bunch of threads demonstrating Kiesel’s issues and lack of integrity since Jeff came to power.

 

[gumbynotpokey]

They do say their raw tone finish is non-returnable, period. It is an interesting question that is asked above, as to if they ever put raw-tone finish instruments in the showroom.

I must say I do feel pain for the OP regardless of everything that everyone has said. What I mean is this - aside from tastes, preferences, etc - I think we all probably have a lot of "middle-of-the-curve" expectancy about what a bass should essentially sound like, given known options. And if this instrument is truly flawed in sound in a major way against/in spite of all known remedies (amp settings, playing styles, set up configurations, strings, etc) then that sucks, regardless.

 

[theinfamous]

Due to serious health issues, waiting 10 months for a build was not an option.

Bass Viking,
I dont see how the burden of proof falls on me to appease your curiosities. Especially when you are a Kiesel shill who lives on the Kiesel forum, becrying any of us TB’ers who voice our unresolved issues with Kiesel.
To me, its not worth the $25 to purchase the TSSR — TS adapter I need to give you an audio demonstration.
Sorry that you cant imagine a company like Kiesel having QC and CS issues even though I listed at KieselBBS a bunch of threads demonstrating Kiesel’s issues and lack of integrity since Jeff came to power.

Hey I get that you're pissed, but don't be a dillhole to someone just because.

Maybe this attitude is what got you hung up on by customer service.

Return the bass for service, because that's the only reasonable option right now, and cut your losses.

 

[Bliff Curton]

Hey I get that you're pissed, but don't be a dillhole to someone just because.

Maybe this attitude is what got you hung up on by customer service.

Return the bass for service, because that's the only reasonable option right now, and cut your losses.

Logical Fallacy - Ad Hominem attack.
I have displayed no attitude and am in fact very professional, pleasant, and courteous.
For example, I dont blurt out “dillhole” to somebody and passive aggressively say that a person deserved getting hing up on.

Are you a Kiesel shill, like Viking Bass?
Or are you just a confrontational person?
I ask because there was nothing constructive in your reactionary post.