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Double Bass NBD

#41
I will be interested to hear more about your bowing progress as you move forward with the Upton (Looking at your pictures inspires ME to practice—I can only imagine how it would feel to have it in the same room!).

As an adult beginner, who came from playing guitar, my first foray into bass playing was an Eastman all-ply rental. I enjoyed the first month and then upgraded the rental to an Eastman with a solid top. Even without a set up it was richer and more fun to play so I bought it and practiced more. When it was properly set up with by Jake from the Bass Spa w/Spiros, an upgraded tailpiece and a wooden endpin I practiced even more.

Recently I have commissioned Jake to rehabilitate an 80 year old fully carved Hofner and as he progresses I get to play it occasionally. It is so much easier to produce the notes with the bow (and hear them clearly) on that bass that I can’t stop playing it. As a bonus, I can play the Eastman better each time I come back from sampling the Hofner.

In short, I am sold on @damonsmith ‘s theory that a well-set up bass (the best one you can afford), is necessary to for the amount of practice required to advance as a musician. My limited experience (admittedly with many other variables present) has also shown that the more solid woods the bass is made of the easier it has been to play. I am not sure that proves anything (after all I have a financial and emotional investment in the upgraded instruments sounding « better ») but it is another perspective from someone who has similar experiences as you—an adult beginner, 8 years of mostly bluegrass bass with a recent focus on bowing and enjoying playing Christmas music with my wife.
 
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#42
Just like Upton, the plywood thing is nuanced and not very clear. People get a ply for various reasons, and then try to convince themselves that it won't hold them back but it does. People argue against that fact because either they don't have the money to upgrade don't want to spend it or someone has filled them with fears of repairs (after chasing a buzz for the last few months before finally resolving it, there is some truth there).
They want their decision to be validated and in doing so pass on bad advice. This is not the same thing as a difference of opinion.
In older times they were the cheapest entry option, that isn't really true anymore.

Similarly, Uptons ARE good basses - as this post affirms. The prices and marketing don't line up with the reality on the ground in terms of what you can get for your money or what basic repairs and maintenance cost elsewhere. So, blanket "recommendations" really need some blanks filled in.
 
#43
Damon I have to take issue with your premise in a general sense. Obviously ply basses have limitations regarding tone but your blanket insistence that solid is always better than ply is, in fact, just your opinion. A well set up bass will not hold anyone back regardless of construction. Additionally, the preemptive assumption that any that anyone who disagrees with you is just trying to justify their decision is pretty pretentious. I respect your experience as a performer and a teacher but I think you do a disservice to the conversation with your insistence on such a monolithic view. Anyone who is a serious player will find the appropriate tools and true progress comes from the ability to apply skills not the construction of the tool. In my opinion, set up trumps everything.
 
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#44
There are great plywood basses and crappy carved basses. But can we agree that, comparing 100 good plywood basses and 100 good carved basses, all well-set-up, the empirical result will be that carved basses sound better?

This result is predictable by physics, even more so when the bow is involved. Yes, I can practice my etudes and Marcello sonatas on a plywood bass, but it's not as much fun, and I would be astounded to see a professional bassist play a classical concert with a plywood bass.
 
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#46
With respect AG, I think you're missing both Damon's and my points. I'm talking about the ability to learn. As I understand it, Damon continues to insist that any less than a solid wood bass will hinder ones ability to learn to play. I disagree.
 
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#48
And I disagree with you. I hit a wall with a ply bass, every student I've had did as well. Working with a carved top and ply top is an entirely different process. You can't explore the process of moving the energy you have already put into the instrument with a plywood bass because it doesn't work the same way at all due to physics. At certain point, understanding that process is going to be the step a person needs to move forward.

Also, there is no real reason outside of bad advice from Talkbass from a student to start with a ply bass in this day and age. Anyway, there are threads were we can fight this out.

Jeff Kissell said:
With respect AG, I think you're missing both Damon's and my points. I'm talking about the ability to learn. As I understand it, Damon continues to insist that any less than a solid wood bass will hinder ones ability to learn to play. I disagree.
Click to expand...
 
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#49
Jeff Kissell said:
With respect AG, I think you're missing both Damon's and my points. I'm talking about the ability to learn. As I understand it, Damon continues to insist that any less than a solid wood bass will hinder ones ability to learn to play. I disagree.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't say that any of us is wrong, but there are different cases.

I had only a plywood bass for 44 years and was happy with it most of the time. Then I decided to pick up the bow.

I would guess that most bassists play plywood basses in middle school and high school, and if they want to learn, they learn. However, as a student develops consciousness of finer points, she will likely yearn for an instrument capable of expressing those finer points. Of course there are those outliers who could make a cardboard box sound good, but they will probably occupy some kind of "niche" genre.

So ... if a person has a tight budget and is a relative beginner, OR if he just wants to play roots music with his fingers, plywood basses are appropriate. But if there's enough money for the better instrument - and the commitment to learn and play more stuff - I have to agree with Damon that getting the better instrument makes more sense.
 
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#52
So, Damon...Based on your theories, when does your generalization end comfortably for you? If you believe an all ply bass setup for setup is not going to perform as well (with the bow) as something with a solid top, how "fully carved" do you think it would have to be? What about a good hybrid? Will a well built hybrid potentially out-perform a well built carved? It feels at some point, quality of woods are going to come into play. A ply back for instance may be as good as a particular solid back if the wood isn't chosen carefully, or there might be resonance issues. I would also imagine that practicality and durability and stability begin to come into play. If I bought a very expensive wonderful carved bass, i might be a little worried to take it on a jazz gig in a tiny pizza shop. PS...This is not to ask you to defend a position on ply vs carved and if ply holds one back. I'm asking you based on your experience what you would tell your students in terms of ultimately finding the "best bass they can afford"...whether that means a great hybrid that might come out the same price as a cheaper, less great carved.
 
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#53
"OR if he just wants to play roots music with his fingers, plywood basses are appropriate."

Please try harder - you're not being as dismissive of specific styles as you could. Please list bluegrass, old time, traditional country as well as others I can't think of. Should you include jazz, which involves "fingers?"
 
#54
I made it most of my 60 years figuring I would be as plain spoken as possible, such that even if it resulted in folk thinking me a jerk, at least they would have a clear basis for understanding my opinions. Gotta say, encountering damon around here has caused me to reconsider that position.

I suspect there is likely a lot I could learn from him, and likely many things we agree on. However, for me, at least, his chosen manner of expressing himself often makes me unwilling to hack through the attitude to try to uncover what of value lies beneath. But, we each get to make our choices.
 
#55
I would like to apologize to @Ed S for bringing this up and dragging the dead horse back out into the open. Ed was only trying to share the excitement and enjoyment of his new bass and I have inadvertently contributed to a highjack of his big reveal.

Mea culpa.

As Damon said, there are other threads where we can spill digital ink and take laps around the ply/hybrid/fully carved question(s).
 
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#56
BobKay said:
"OR if he just wants to play roots music with his fingers, plywood basses are appropriate."

Please try harder - you're not being as dismissive of specific styles as you could. Please list bluegrass, old time, traditional country as well as others I can't think of. Should you include jazz, which involves "fingers?"
Click to expand...

I'm sorry I wasn't clearer. I don't mean to dismiss ANY kind of music. I simply got tired of repetitively listing all the genres in which pizzicato is the norm. You will have to look hard to find someone who loves bluegrass, trad country, and jazz more than I do.
 
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#57
No worries, man. The back and forth on these fora is WAY above the tone I encounter just about anywhere else on-line.

And I'd imagine folk getting pretty tired pretty quick over me effusing over how much I love this thing! (Yesterday, as the afternoon sun was catching the grain, I almost took a pic and posted it. To my credit, I picked it up and started playing it instead! ;)) So I'm fine w/ this thread evolving over time, if folk think it an appropriate place to post something.

The dimensions are apparently different enough that I've identified some things I need to work on when bowing the D and G strings. Even got me to pull out the #&$*% mirror! And I might raise the action a tad. Not sure yet. Since I have the other bass to slap, I don't know how much I want to try to set this one up as able to do ALL things. At least not yet. In the course of the past week, I am bowing some ensemble material that I never felt comfortable bowing before. Likely reflects a number of factors - including the strings and the desire to play w/ my new toy!

But we're pretty much all big boys and girls here. Personally, I'd prefer an open discussion. Damon is free to express himself, and anyone else is able to express their agreement or disagreement.
 
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#58
Hey Ed,

Thanks for understanding everyone’s need (including my own ;)) to be right on the internet and for letting it happen in « your space».

To get back to talking about your bass, how are the different neck of the Upton (vs. the Englehart) dimensions treating you?
 
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#59
Bar Star said:
To get back to talking about your bass, how are the different neck of the Upton dimensions treating you?
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I was really concerned about that, as everyone always talks about the skinny Kay/Engle necks. But I've never really felt MY neck was all that skinny. I've certainly felt skinnier. And I know I HATE some really wide/flat/U-shaped necks as I've felt on some uprights.

This neck might feel A LITTLE meatier, but it is not at all a big difference. Maybe someday I'll get a pair of my wife's calipers out and check dimensions. It feels a tad wider, and the slide down to the heel seems a little different. Actually, when I shift I often slide to the heel/chin as reference points. The heel/chin on this bass feels slightly different from my Engle. I'll have to get used to that, but in the past week, I've been working on so much else, that precise larger shifts have not been at the forefront.

The neck is very comfortable. Not extreme in any respect. Feels overall more "substantial" than my old bass - which is pretty consistent w/ this bass feeling more substantial in just about every respect. I think my Engle neck was more "V" shaped, whereas this one feels as tho the sides of the V were bowed out/curved a bit. Does that make sense?

In fact, yesterday I was thinking about weighing the two. (Seems they are always discussing weight over on the slab side! ;)) This one is definitely heavier - I wonder how much?
 
#60
Really it just has to do with how energy or vibration stays in the instrument. You just need a solid top to work on this, so a well set up hybrid will do. Whether arco or pizzicato you work with redirecting the energy you have already put in, rather than constantly putting in new energy. There is no magical piece of laminated wood that works this way.
So, since the instrument does not end at the strings and bridge "any old bass with a good set up" is not the answer. It is an entirely different physical process.

Once you have that, things are just about taste and the sound you want. You might want something louder, more full, more resonant, more punchy or the sound you want may be an old Kay with gut that you choose to pull the sound out from an informed position.

People like to throw around the "expensive old carved bass" phrase. I paid 3k for my Romanian flatback in the 90s, I would be surprised if I could get 5k out of it now. There are fantastic European fully carved basses around that play beautifully for around that as well.
The basic price for any bass worth playing in the long term whether ply, carved or hybrid is really about the same at this point. So, a big part of it is that the ply basses that anyone will actually defend no longer save you money and are therefore an advanced decision at this point.


Len S said:
So, Damon...Based on your theories, when does your generalization end comfortably for you? If you believe an all ply bass setup for setup is not going to perform as well (with the bow) as something with a solid top, how "fully carved" do you think it would have to be? What about a good hybrid? Will a well built hybrid potentially out-perform a well built carved? It feels at some point, quality of woods are going to come into play. A ply back for instance may be as good as a particular solid back if the wood isn't chosen carefully, or there might be resonance issues. I would also imagine that practicality and durability and stability begin to come into play. If I bought a very expensive wonderful carved bass, i might be a little worried to take it on a jazz gig in a tiny pizza shop. PS...This is not to ask you to defend a position on ply vs carved and if ply holds one back. I'm asking you based on your experience what you would tell your students in terms of ultimately finding the "best bass they can afford"...whether that means a great hybrid that might come out the same price as a cheaper, less great carved.
Click to expand...
 

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