Double Bass NBD

[Len S]

Yup. I was at Shank about 3 months ago and had him look over my current bass and I tried what was in my range. There was one Chinese Gamba that I actually liked quite a bit, and I almost pulled the trigger but it just didn't feel quite right. I'm heading to Gage in NYC tomorrow. If not for Covid, who knows. Would even drive to Cincinnati or Chicago. For now I'm making do with what I have (it's a serviceable bass that I believe is quite a bargain for the price, or at least I've made it work...a Bulgarian carved I got in 2001), but I feel I want to take the next step up, whatever that is. But it has to be a fit. I'm not jumping up and down to spend a bunch of money. I am going to see a particular bass tomorrow at Gage, and if it's not "the one" or there isn't one in the shop, I'll wait and circle back to Shank and see if they have any new inventory. That would be my preference...to find a relatively close shop (90 minutes is as close as I'm gonna get) to build a relationship with. If I lived in CT, or within a few hours that shop would be Upton.

 

[Jeff Kissell]

I'll just leave this here and encourage us all to actually read and attempt to understand a premise.

I've have never made the assumption that ply basses are anything other than what they are, a tool in the toolbox. I have never asserted they are equal to or better than carved basses with regards to "tone." I have, however, often said they can be the most appropriate choice.

As far as I can tell, it's not up to me or anyone else to try to make people feel bad or insecure with their choices and that is what I attempted to call Damon out on. To Wasnex's point, this particular example wasn't the most egregious, just the latest in a pattern...

#42

...People get a ply for various reasons, and then try to convince themselves that it won't hold them back but it does. People argue against that fact because either they don't have the money to upgrade don't want to spend it or someone has filled them with fears of repairs...

#43

Damon I have to take issue with your premise in a general sense. Obviously ply basses have limitations regarding tone but your blanket insistence that solid is always better than ply is, in fact, just your opinion. A well set up bass will not hold anyone back regardless of construction. Additionally, the preemptive assumption that any that anyone who disagrees with you is just trying to justify their decision is pretty pretentious. I respect your experience as a performer and a teacher but I think you do a disservice to the conversation with your insistence on such a monolithic view. Anyone who is a serious player will find the appropriate tools and true progress comes from the ability to apply skills not the construction of the tool...

#77

...If someone wants to address something they perceive as bad behavior IMHO, it should be done as soon as possible and in the location where the transgression originally occurred. Ambushing someone later in a totally different thread, when the offender has not repeated the behavior is pretty dickish as well...

 

[damonsmith]

Which is exactly the crux of the issue. No one is ever talking about the choices a musician HAS made. These are all about what should be recommended. In the age of cheap hybrids there is no reason to recommend a ply bass to a beginner.
Once that is stated and the reasons why, people start feeling attacked for the choices they have already made.
If someone asks the question, I give the responsible advice. If a student shows up with a plywood bass you can be sure that we just get on with it. The best reason to play a plywood bass is because you have one.
My issue is recommending them at this point in time when they don't save any real money and hinder someone making the best progress they can. No one is ever telling anyone to scrape their plys, but that is what people hear and they translate that into defending their choices which then translates into what I find to be irresponsible advice.

You are pulling a gorgeous sound from your American Standard - no one can ever tell you otherwise. Try telling me I shouldn't put the bow in between the strings! An Artist NEVER needs to defend their choices. Never.
It should be clear that you don't see me on the Bluegrass forum, either. Outside of that forum it should be assumed the student has wider interests and ply is not the way to go in this time period when there are options.
I can also say that I don't get offended when nobody but nobody recommends a cheap Romanian flatback with a janky neck repair, either. My bass has served me well, but it has been a journey and a ton of luck, to say the least. The answer to "what bass should I get?" never has anything to with what bass you yourself are playing, but the best advice you can give.

As far as I can tell, it's not up to me or anyone else to try to make people feel bad or insecure with their choices and that is what I attempted to call Damon out on.

 

[Wasnex]

I'll just leave this here and encourage us all to actually read and attempt to understand a premise.

I've have never made the assumption that ply basses are anything other than what they are, a tool in the toolbox. I have never asserted they are equal to or better than carved basses with regards to "tone." I have, however, often said they can be the most appropriate choice.

As far as I can tell, it's not up to me or anyone else to try to make people feel bad or insecure with their choices and that is what I attempted to call Damon out on. To Wasnex's point, this particular example wasn't the most egregious, just the latest in a pattern...

#42


#43


#77

Sorry but I don't really see where Damon committed any sort of transgression in post #42. In this case he just stated an opinion, and my perception is your response was both inaccurate and a bit of a personal attack. I am not saying you should not have argued your point. In this particular case, I just don't see why you needed to make it nasty or personal.

Also I strongly disagree with this statement from post #43:

A well set up bass will not hold anyone back regardless of construction.

IMHO, A good setup does not ensure good tone or that a bass will respond well to the bow...but construction and materials do. If the player is going to work on arco, I think a laminated bass will most definitely impact their development.

There are plenty of hybrid and fully carved BSOs that sound and play like crap, regardless of how well they are set up. So you can't just say the distinction is between construction methods. Although it may go unsaid, the claim we are making is that a well made hybrid or carved instrument can be far superior to the best laminated...and this difference in quality is reflected in how the instrument responds to the player's inputs. A decent hybrid or decent carved upright is going to be a lot more responsive and musical sounding than the best laminated...at least this has held true over the range of basses I have played.

So IMHO a plywood bass can hold back and limit a player's develop...but if the player is okay with these limits so am I.

The problem is we can't know the future, so it's not always easy to say whether a laminated bass is a good buy for a new player. Two years down the road looking back on the purchase, I think it's fairly easy to assess the decision. If you are still happy with the laminated after a couple of years and not considering an upgrade, you made the right choice. If you are chomping at the bit for a better bass, it probably would have been beneficial for you to start with a better bass...but by then it's water under the bridge.

So I am not disagreeing that a laminated can be an appropriate choice. Some players are perfectly happy with laminated basses and are completely content with, or oblivious to their limitations.

I think the best advice is actually to rent before you buy. Chances are you will rent a laminated instrument. The idea is to see if you will stick with playing upright before investing a significant amount of money in an instrument that can be hard to sell. Once you get to the point where you know you will stick with it, then you can go explore which type of bass you should by and how much you should spend, and you will already have some experience on a laminated instrument. Then you can go try different basses and make more of an informed decision for yourself.

 

[Wasnex]

In the age of cheap hybrids there is no reason to recommend a ply bass to a beginner.

In a lot of circumstances, people buy what is available. I called all the violin shops in my metro, which is about 1 million people, and the only bass available was a Kay C1. The bass actually sounded nice for what it was, but the bridge was a blank so the strings did not contour to the fingerboard, and they wanted $3,500. I am sure they would have included a setup at that price . They also had a bass with flame painted on it that I didn't bother handling. I have seen a few other basses pop in the area on Craigslist and Ebay for about $1,000...all laminated. I think the last one that popped up was a Meisel.

I pretty sure I have played a Thompson hybrid that sounded halfway decent.

Here's the Thompson price list

Standard RM-100, with violin corners and now, upgraded tuners (our most popular model), $1,485

Standard RM-100, gamba shaped, (same as above, just different shape) $1,485

Standard RM-100 in Blonde finish, $1,485

Standard RM-100, with oil varnish with same upgraded tuners, $1,585

Hybrid RM-200, only comes with oil varnish, same upgraded heavy brass tuners, $2,185​

I googled Shen Hybrids and found historical prices ranging from about $3K to $3.5K. MSRP for the SB180 is over $4K. Bass Cellar sold a used SB200 Willow last week for $3K...but I don't see a lot of SB200s going for this price. I see new SB200s running from about $4.2K to 5.2K.

So IMHO, your still paying a bit of a premium for a hybrid.

I don't know what most students do in your area or even here for that matter. When I was a kid, I played on the school instruments. In junior high they had Kay S-1s and a beat up King. In high school all of the basses were Kay S-1s. In college, the school provided a decent carved bass. Actually I started with sort of a beater carved bass and they bought a new one .

 

[Ed S]

Which is exactly the crux of the issue. No one is ever talking about the choices a musician HAS made. These are all about what should be recommended. ...

You might want to consider what you write - or how it might reasonably be intended. I have no desire to go back through all of your posts, but I'm pretty sure that when I referred to my having ordered this hybrid for around $6k, you tactfully and constructively responded along the lines that "no hybrid is worth $6k." Well - you are flat out wrong, because this bass is well worth the purchase price to me, and no one else is in a position to say otherwise. I acknowledge that this particular bass would not be worth $6k to you or just about anyone else - but that is of no concern to me.

And I do not think that is the only example. I also recall one thread where you said the only reasons someone would recommend a ply would be to justify their own past mistakes/limitations or something along those lines. It is fine to insult someone or utter offensive words. Just don't later deny that you did. And don't pretend that you could not have anticipated how your words would be received.

You've gone to some lengths to cultivate a particular image. Don't deny the fruits of your efforts.

 

[damonsmith]

6K is high for a hybrid, still: you clearly got a great bass. Uptons prices are high, this is a known fact. I never suggested you cancel the order and in fact I said you'd get a solid bass!
It is true I do not believe the ply recommendations are rarely coming from the right place.
However, it is always in the context of a recommendation that this comes up. People should always make what they already have work.

 

[sean_on_bass]

6K is high for a hybrid, still: you clearly got a great bass. Uptons prices are high, this is a known fact. I never suggested you cancel the order and in fact I said you'd get a solid bass!
It is true I do not believe the ply recommendations are rarely coming from the right place.
However, it is always in the context of a recommendation that this comes up. People should always make what they already have work.

Are Upton prices really that high? I see you complain about the price of things quite often, whether it be an Upton bass or the price of just about anything in New England. Can you recommend a better priced bass that is also made from scratch domestically and not a chinese import? When looking through that lens, Upton seems to be successful because they are producing a product that nobody else can at a reasonable price point. I don't know of any comparable maker in the US, which is why so many people look to them for a purchase. Like alot of folks, i want to "buy local" to keep the money flowing onshore. I also want to buy from a company who pays their staff a fair wage, which to me means the quality of work will be better. Happier employees perform better.

 

[damonsmith]

Right, that is a very specific lens. I am thinking about all the Chinese as well as great fully carved European shop basses in the price range. Most people don't have $1000-2000 in their budget to put towards a cause.
With so many great basses in the world and on the market, I don't see the sense in having an entry level bass made from scratch.
Still, there are tons of threads where we can fight this one out as well. Ed S. got a great bass, and I think it will take him further than he imagined.

 

[Ed S]

...
Ed S. got a great bass, and I think it will take him further than he imagined.

In that vein, last night we were playing and I was doing several things w/ the bow that I had never even contemplated before. The sort of thing where you know in your head that it sucks, but you can at least imagine doing it right at some point in the future. My wife - being ever so complimentary and supportive - said, "I'll say that I didn't notice your bowing in a bad way!"

I'm still basic at the level of a chimp sawing away, but I'm really digging this bass.

 

[lowphatbass]

Not necessarily relevant here, but amusing none the less...

I had a great Uncle that worked on the Winchester Mystery House. I have some furniture he made for my father after he retired...in the late 30’s/early 40’s I think. He used a combination of solid and plywood. I can remember my Grandfather proudly mentioning that plywood and how expensive it was as he bought the materials for the furniture. It’s not great furniture but I can still say I’m the proud owner of a hybrid desk and dresser set lol.

 

[Keith Rawlings]

Are Upton prices really that high? I see you complain about the price of things quite often, whether it be an Upton bass or the price of just about anything in New England. Can you recommend a better priced bass that is also made from scratch domestically and not a chinese import? When looking through that lens, Upton seems to be successful because they are producing a product that nobody else can at a reasonable price point. I don't know of any comparable maker in the US, which is why so many people look to them for a purchase. Like alot of folks, i want to "buy local" to keep the money flowing onshore. I also want to buy from a company who pays their staff a fair wage, which to me means the quality of work will be better. Happier employees perform better.

I agree. Commissioning a bass from a reputable American maker is costly and Upton is the most reasonable in that regards. I started doing research on the price of similar American made instruments and they are outrageously expensive; but Upton is affordable and worth the investment IMO. While I’m sure that these other basses are amazing instruments built by unbelievably talented luthiers I still would rather go to Upton than pay the cost of a brand new SUV for a bass from another American builder.

 

[damonsmith]

Maybe we can agree that "commissioning a new bass from an American Maker" isn't a very responsible rec. for "What entry level bass should I get?"!
But a good rec. for "What bass should I commission from an American Maker?"
Fuel for the fire: I have been WAY more impressed with New Standard.

I agree. Commissioning a bass from a reputable American maker is costly and Upton is the most reasonable in that regards.

 

[Eric Hochberg]

But a good rec. for "What bass should I commission from an American Maker?"
Fuel for the fire: I have been WAY more impressed with New Standard.

New Standards are made in Germany and finished and setup here. AFAIK.

 

[Keith Rawlings]

Maybe we can agree that "commissioning a new bass from an American Maker" isn't a very responsible rec. for "What entry level bass should I get?"!
But a good rec. for "What bass should I commission from an American Maker?"
Fuel for the fire: I have been WAY more impressed with New Standard.

This thread is “NBD” and the author is excited about his new Upton Hybrid; which he was allowed to customize with its body style, type, finish, fingerboard setup, etcetera. So he was allowed to pick his options to his liking which IMO is “commissioning” a bass. My point is that you can’t go wrong with a great American-built Upton bass for that price. This isn’t the “best entry level bass” thread.

 

[damonsmith]

Yeah, a lot of things just sort of come forward when you upgrade an instrument or bow. I will be curious to know if your practice gets to be more regular and rewarding.

In that vein, last night we were playing and I was doing several things w/ the bow that I had never even contemplated before. The sort of thing where you know in your head that it sucks, but you can at least imagine doing it right at some point in the future. My wife - being ever so complimentary and supportive - said, "I'll say that I didn't notice your bowing in a bad way!"

I'm still basic at the level of a chimp sawing away, but I'm really digging this bass.