Need advise on powerful stage rig, Mesa Subway cabinet selection

Greetings Fellow Bassist!

I am struggling to chose a new stage rig for my post metal/progressive rock band ARIS. Looking to hear from users of Mesa Boogie Subway bass cabinets that play loud and preferably use 5 string basses. These Subway cabinets are small and too close to the ground to be usable in the bars and clubs we perform in. There is not usually a PA for instruments...just vocals, so I need to fill the room or hall with bass. What’s Subway stacks are recommended? You can here what I’m doing here... soundcloud.com/aris-music
or [email protected]
I want the top cab to at least be high enough of ground to get over the crowd that are usually right up at the stage area, which is no stage at all because it’s the floor. I need to be loud and move a lot of air. Especially, need low B string punch. I have two Mesa Big Block Titan V12s and Line 6 Helix on the way, so a stereo stack is preferred. Would like to know what cabinet pairings would be best for a loud punchy, yet full range sound to get the most out of the Helix. I’m leaning towards two 115s with two 210 in a stereo pair stack of four 8 Ohm cabs or should I go with a 215 and 410 for a single stack of two 4 Ohm cabs? Thank you in advance for any inputs you may have for me.

Kind regards,

Michael

 

Greetings BassCooker,

Thank you for making time to reply. I appreciate your suggestion for a pair of stacked Subway 212s. I’m heavily considering some 12s in the stack. I do love 12s and need modular solution for playing in different projects. Using a Pedulla PentaBuzz 5 for a Fusion project and a KK Baby Bass for a Latin Jazz project. A 212 may be perfect for these lower volume applications. I don’t think I can avoid using a 215 for ARIS. Stacking 212 results in just over 5’ stack, which is perfect size considering I have a rack to place on top.

Kind regards,

Michael

 

Hello Omega Monkey,

Thank you for your response and advice. You raise several excellent points. Perhaps, I should have done a better job in describing my application for this rig in my original post. I’m always conscious of not drowning out my bandmates. Especially, our singer. However, my drummer and guitarist are loud and I could not cut through with a single Epifani DIST 410, so I added a UL3 310 and went with QSC GX-7 to drive the cabs. My preamp is an Aguilar DB680. This rig is a bit too HiFi for the style ARIS is playing and we do have have instrumental section that are pretty heavy. It’s during these sections that I need to elevate volume, yet retain low B fidelity and articulation and also have some midrange cut for two handed tapping, chords, runs and swells with FX. During the vocals, we control our dynamics quite well and I even disappear from the mix at times.

Since we are opening shows or providing support for larger acts, we don’t have the option of setting up an auxiliary PA where we usually perform. We don’t play tiny bars. However, we do have 4 EV ELX floor monitors to make sure we hear clear vocals when we play clubs that don’t have stage monitors. If the PA is beefy enough, we chose to put in our guitarist who plays in stereo and some kick into the mains. My bass is rarely welcomed into the PA as there are not usually subs. So all the bass needs to be generated by my rig. I do use a wireless and go out front to hear the band mix and make changes accordingly. If the room get packed and there are bodies upfront blocking and absorbing the bass, I have been told by trusted musician friends that frequent our shows, that I’m not keeping up with the PA as it projects into the venue. When I turn up and EQ accordingly, I can blend into the room well. Since, the size of venue and quality of PA and experience level of the sound person varies widely, I need to make sure I have more power on tap rather than less. Its all about headroom for me and I want as much as possibly so my rig will work wherever we play.

I very much agree that blowing out band members and the audience with too loud of sound is a very bad thing. After three years playing the local circuit, we are no where near the loudest band in our scene. However, hearing health is important to me as well as the guys in our band. I personally walk the room before shows to thank people for coming and also to offer them earplugs. I mention we have loud passages in some songs and that we can get loud. Most don’t accept them, but those who do are pleased and usually come up after the set to say thanks and sometimes pick up some stickers or buy a CD. So, impactful dynamics are key to conveying our songs and having control over the necessary amount of volume (headroom) during our shows is required to make sure the bass is not lost in the room or over powered by the PA.

The Mesa Boogie house “rock” sound as well as switching from a Paul Reed Smith GG-5 bass to a Spector 5 should deliver the tones I’m after. After reading the TB replies and watching some great tone comparisons on YouTube, I’m leaning towards a Subway 215 with a 212 on top. The Titan has a 2 Ohm switch on the back, so aim assuming it can handle the 2 Ohm load. Both Titans are receiving power supply and thermal updates at the factory. I plan to play through some Subway cab pairings when I pick up my amps. I will come back and share my findings to help other who may be in a similar situation.

As for splitting the bass cabs left and right of the drums to run in stereo, I do now realize that in larger venues with a proper PA that this setup is not acoustically ideal. The split cabs would create issues for the stage mix. So this is no longer something I’m interested in doing when we play bigger venues with full PA. I’ll stick with making my sound in one area and projecting from a vertical array cabinet stack.

In the smaller venues without full PA we play, my guitarist has problems hearing me at times and the same happens for me not hearing him as well as I need at times. We discussed both of us splitting our cabs left and right of the drums. The idea is that hearing each other better will help us self-balance our mix. For the audience, we’re thinking it will be just like listening to a big stereo system with a live drummer in the middle. The guitar is already stereo and mostly in the PA and we want to keep the stage monitors with vocals only. So the split stereo set up seemed like a good idea to try.

Again, thank you for your response and advice. I very much appreciate your point of view and it has made me rethink how I put this new rig together.

Kind regards,

Michael

 

Hi Wasnex,

So cool to hear from another Titan V12 owner! Thanks for providing the attachment and insight about setup. Yes, I do agree that a split stereo bass rig with identical cabs (and signal inputs) left and right of the drums will in fact create comb-filtering, if not other undesirable acoustic anomalies. I’m all on the vertical array approach of stacking the cabs and projecting my sound from one location.

However, I have an idea about adjusting the left and right signals slightly differently and hopefully, Eloise or at least, minimize the comb-filtering issues. I explain more on this below...

Yes, thank you for pointing out the power handling of the Subway line. Only the 410 has the power handling to match the Titan. This has me considering a pair of 410s as the 215 and 212 don’t have high enough power handing to match the 410. I could use the volume of each amp to adjust so it’s not a deal killer. Im curious if two 115s with a 212 or 210 on top of each would stand tall enough. The 215 and 212 are 30” high so stacking these comes in at 5’ tall which is good. Will get try out the Subway cabs when I pick up my Titans from Boogie factory next week. Will come back with my findings.

Yes, you are on point about a split can set up aiding in guitarist and bassist hearing each other better. Especially, when we are backed up against a wall and the PA is 8-12 feet in front. We hate trying to hearing with all the room sound...slap back off the side and back walls. We spend a lot of time tone chasing and we very much enjoy hearing each other play. Since we do it use in ears or put anything in the monitors other than vocals, having both the stereo guitar cabs and stereo bass cabs split on both sides of the drums would help us self-mix better. Hearing each other well is so important and inspires us to elevate our performance. Plus, I am using more FX in our new material. With us both using Helix, we were thinking splitting would create some cool FX. We don’t have a lead guitarist, so I have an expanded role over playing traditional bass lines locked with the kick. We do a lot of odd meter time signatures and syncopated rhythms and I’m more like the other guitarist. I’m also going to start adding keyboard parts through my rig for intros and extended instrumental sections. I’m very much looking to utilize some bass pedal sounds and synth through the Helix/Boogie rig. I’m thinking these sounds will translate better in a stereo set up, considering that Helix allows for individual delay and EQ for left and the right channels of the stereo signal. Being that my guitarist will have the same, we can dial in when we are completely in unison and when we are totally different. Using a slightly different delay and EQ for each left and right of the bass signal should eliminate the comb-filtering issue or any phasing issues. I do have some friends that are FOH engineers at large venues and will inquire with them about this split stereo bass rig approach. Will share their feed back, in case others may be curious about this approach.

Kind regards,

Michael

 

Hello AgedHorse,

Thank you for responding to my post. I am pleased to read your reply and looking for substantial firepower. I do remember playing through the first Subway cabinets are the last Bass Player Live (RIP) and was impressed what the small cabinets could do. I remember Cody Write and myself playing though them and being totally enamored with the tones. I believe the 215 and 410 may be the best for a single stack configuration. I could still utilize the stereo FX in the Helix. However, I believe the close proximity of the two cabs in a single stack configuration will not deliver the true spacial dimension the Helix is capable of. This is why I was thinking to use both Titans (L+R) to take full advantage of the Helix stereo FX. In this scenario, a 215 with a 210 on top seemA like a good pairing. However, the impedance of connecting 4 Ohm + 8 Ohm bass cabs = at 3.62 Ohm. The Titan V12 has an impedance switch on the back with a 2 Ohm setting. I’m hoping that this load will not be a problem for the Titan and actually leave solemn headroom without maxing out the power section.

I am looking forward to trying some Subway cabinet combinations next week when I pick up my Titan. Are you still affiliated with Mesa Boogie? It would be great to say hello in person should you be at the factory next week.

Kind regards,

Michael