Let's say your playing in a C ii-V-I. The ii would be a Dmin, the V an F, and the I a C. but would you play the ii using the dorian scale, the V using the mixolodeon scale, and the C using a Ionian? Just trying to wrap my head around the concept and uses of modes.
Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
need help understanding modes
- Thread starter Thumper828
- Start date
Quick reply:
The V is a G, and the three modes are the same notes in this case, just starting on different degrees.
Check this out:
The V is a G, and the three modes are the same notes in this case, just starting on different degrees.
Check this out:
Yes to the V being a G not an F. And yes you could play Ionian over the C chord and Dorian over the Dm chord and Mixolydian over the V chord if you want. But you are playing modes over a chord progression which draws you to the tonal center of C Ionian. Which has a distinct sound - the major scale sound. Why not just draw your melody notes from the C major scale? Dorian is minor and has a minor sound, Mixolydian is major and has a sound of it's own. I hear Latin, yes you will see it used in the Blues and also you can expect to see people playing Mixolydian over any V7 chord. And then Ionian has a sound. But, I do not believe the mood of your ii-V-I song changed three times the V-I cadence pulls it toward the I tonic - in this case major sound. That's perhaps a paradigm shift.
Modes are confusing, first, because there are two ways to teach modes and the person answering your question does not tell you which method he used to answer your question. Then second, modal harmony enters into the picture and most do not take that into account.
Relative modes the key changes and the notes stay the same.
Parallel modes the key stays the same and the notes change.
We think of D Dorian being D, E, F, G, A, B, C. All notes from the C major scale just started on the D. The D major scale has these notes; D, E, F#, G, A, B, C# so D Dorian and the D major scale are different. Parallel tells us if we take the D major scale and flat the 3 and 7 we get D Dorian. And we do. Confusing, yes it is - if you are not thinking from the modal standpoint. Plus .....
Modes can, but, should not be played over a V-I chord progression. Why? Because in a V-I chord progression what you hear is the tonal center of the V-I cadence which is the I tonic sound. With a mode you want the modal sound to sustain as a droning effect so the signature sound of the mode will sustain. You do that by playing over a modal vamp of one perhaps two chords, not a chord progression. Notice I said modes can.... yes you can play your mode over a chord progression if you want to but the modal sound is lost because the tonal sound (V-I cadence) drowns it out.
Modes are modal and have their own set of rules. The confusion comes in when we use modes and expect them to conform to the rules used with a chord progression. The two are different animals. If you recognize that and use modal rules when playing modes - modes become very simple and easy to use. In most cases it is a paradigm shift. Get that behind you and modes can be fun.
Modal harmony needs to come into your thinking. Here is good paper on that subject. http://www.riddleworks.com/modes2.html This example will use the parallel mode structure where the notes change. Major modes - Ionian, Lydian and Mixolydian have the major scale as their home base, Lydian changes one note the #4. Mixolydian changes one note the b7. Then the minor modes use the natural minor scale as home base. Dorian will sharp the b6 to a natural 6. Phrygian will flat the 2, etc. In doing that each has a different sound - it's that different sound you are trying to capture. And you do that by accenting the signature note of the mode, i.e. the b2 in Phrygian, the natural 6 in Dorian, the sharp 4 in Lydian, etc.
You can do that best by playing your mode over a modal vamp. Spend some time with modal harmony and I think it will start making since. http://www.riddleworks.com/modalharm3.html Notice here we join relative and parallel in the examples.
Have fun.
I look at modes first by knowing the the entire major scale pattern anywhere on the neck. Then you could play a song in a major key anywhere and you could play it all over the place. Then you go into the specific modes. So if you play a song I I V IV, you could play it a variety of ways. You could play the I using the Ionian mode, then the V could use the Mixolydian, and the IV you could play using Ionian or you could play it with Phrygian.
This is the site that I learned it from like 15 years ago: http://www.scenicnewengland.net/guitar/scales/major/key.htm
I basically played this over a weekend for 17 hours.
This is the site that I learned it from like 15 years ago: http://www.scenicnewengland.net/guitar/scales/major/key.htm
I basically played this over a weekend for 17 hours.
This is one of the best posts explaining the use of modes that I've read on TB.
The answer to your question is that you can think of it this way, but in reality, you are simply playing in C Major the whole time. Of course, that is modal - the Ionian mode, but not dorian or mixolydian. Here's where dorian and mixolydian come into play: when the tonal center of the piece of music (or a section of a piece of music) is D minor and you play D dorian (a displaced C Major scale), then you are in D dorian. Likewise for the G7; if the tonal center is G and you play G mixolydian (also a displaced C Major scale), you are in G Mixolydian.
The important concept is what is the tonal center? In your example, a ii V I of C Major, you have indicated the tonal center - C Major. If the Dmin and the G7 are indeed functioning as ii and V chords, then, by definition, you are in C Major, not D dorian or G MIxolydian.
If you are actually playing in D dorian, the Dmin (or Dmin7) is the i chord (of D dorian, not of D minor), not the ii chord.
The important concept is what is the tonal center? In your example, a ii V I of C Major, you have indicated the tonal center - C Major. If the Dmin and the G7 are indeed functioning as ii and V chords, then, by definition, you are in C Major, not D dorian or G MIxolydian.
If you are actually playing in D dorian, the Dmin (or Dmin7) is the i chord (of D dorian, not of D minor), not the ii chord.
Need help understanding modes?
Do you understand the Major Scale?
Do you understand how chords are formed?
Do you understand how harmony relates to melody?
When you understand these 3 things completely you will be well on your way to understanding modes.
Until then why would you need new toys when you dont play with the ones you already have?
No.
Do you understand the Major Scale?
Do you understand how chords are formed?
Do you understand how harmony relates to melody?
When you understand these 3 things completely you will be well on your way to understanding modes.
Until then why would you need new toys when you dont play with the ones you already have?
No.
^Exactly!
Yes, you can use D Dorian, then switch to G Mixolydian, then switch to C Ionian. But that's utterly pointless in tonal music, which clearly ii V I is.
Our job is to DEFINE the harmony. That's a lot more than merely outlining the current chord. It's telling everyone how the chords relate to each other. Thinking of these three chords as separate entities and switching your frame of reference with each change totally obfuscates that these three chords are not only in the same key, but they DEFINE the tonal center.
Knowing what notes are in the chord is a major start. Knowing WHY the ii is a minor 7 and how it is derived from the scale for which it is the ii tells you much more about the chord, its relationship to the I and V, and how they go together. And that helps you build a bass line that functions across all three chords.
Use the TB search function for "harmonized scale". It will give you copious amounts of useful and accurate knowledge about this.
John
Yes, you can use D Dorian, then switch to G Mixolydian, then switch to C Ionian. But that's utterly pointless in tonal music, which clearly ii V I is.
Our job is to DEFINE the harmony. That's a lot more than merely outlining the current chord. It's telling everyone how the chords relate to each other. Thinking of these three chords as separate entities and switching your frame of reference with each change totally obfuscates that these three chords are not only in the same key, but they DEFINE the tonal center.
Knowing what notes are in the chord is a major start. Knowing WHY the ii is a minor 7 and how it is derived from the scale for which it is the ii tells you much more about the chord, its relationship to the I and V, and how they go together. And that helps you build a bass line that functions across all three chords.
Use the TB search function for "harmonized scale". It will give you copious amounts of useful and accurate knowledge about this.
John
I see exactly what you are saying about the tonal center and feel of the music.
I do understand the the Major scale and chords. But the harmony vs. melody leaves me in the dark. Thanks for the heads up!
in the case of a ii-V-I it is simpler to see it as one key center that will change with the next ii-V-I.
Dmin7 ( ii) D-E-F-G-A-B-C
G7 (V) G-A-B-C-D-E-F
Cmaj7 (I) C-D-E-F-G-A-B
See ??? they share the same notes ... it is all in C maj ... what you need to know his how to tell the key center of a group of chords.
Mode are more useful during a solo where each mode kind of say different thing. Adam Nitti explain it better than I :
Dmin7 ( ii) D-E-F-G-A-B-C
G7 (V) G-A-B-C-D-E-F
Cmaj7 (I) C-D-E-F-G-A-B
See ??? they share the same notes ... it is all in C maj ... what you need to know his how to tell the key center of a group of chords.
Mode are more useful during a solo where each mode kind of say different thing. Adam Nitti explain it better than I :
I think what Adam is talking about in his video is arpeggio based improvisation rather than chordal based, since in my mind, chordal based improv is when 3 or more notes are sounded together. Like the stuff Wes Montgomery does. But I do get what he's saying.
Also the point most people seem to miss when it comes to the various modes is that the sound of the mode comes from the harmonic underpinning, not necessarily from the note sequence of the mode you choose to play during a solo.
For example: As was mentioned before, in the key of "C major"; D Dorian, G Mixolydian and C Ionian all contain the same 7 notes. If I'm playing with a pianist and he plays a chord vamp of D minor7, G Dominant and then C major7, I could choose to play a line based on the sequence of G Mixolydian ONLY and the vamp will still sound like I'm playing D Dorian, to G Mixolydian to C Ionian, because the harmonic underpinning as played by the piano will dictate what the ear hears, not the note sequence I choose. All the modes are all the same notes so the note sequence doesn't matter in that case. In bop, jazz guys tended to outline chords very specifically during their solos. In Modal playing, you are more free to do what you want when you solo, because the harmony dictates the sound. That's why Miles started playing modally in the first place. He was tired of being handcuffed to chord changes.
Modes only take on their characteristic sound based on note sequence when they are played in isolation. If you are playing with other people, the harmony dictates the mode you hear.
So I mention all this to say, play what you want (in the proper key) and the modes take care of themselves. I think people make this a little harder than it needs to be.
Also the point most people seem to miss when it comes to the various modes is that the sound of the mode comes from the harmonic underpinning, not necessarily from the note sequence of the mode you choose to play during a solo.
For example: As was mentioned before, in the key of "C major"; D Dorian, G Mixolydian and C Ionian all contain the same 7 notes. If I'm playing with a pianist and he plays a chord vamp of D minor7, G Dominant and then C major7, I could choose to play a line based on the sequence of G Mixolydian ONLY and the vamp will still sound like I'm playing D Dorian, to G Mixolydian to C Ionian, because the harmonic underpinning as played by the piano will dictate what the ear hears, not the note sequence I choose. All the modes are all the same notes so the note sequence doesn't matter in that case. In bop, jazz guys tended to outline chords very specifically during their solos. In Modal playing, you are more free to do what you want when you solo, because the harmony dictates the sound. That's why Miles started playing modally in the first place. He was tired of being handcuffed to chord changes.
Modes only take on their characteristic sound based on note sequence when they are played in isolation. If you are playing with other people, the harmony dictates the mode you hear.
So I mention all this to say, play what you want (in the proper key) and the modes take care of themselves. I think people make this a little harder than it needs to be.
I see what your saying there.Thanks for the advice.Hoping to improve on improv and basically coming up with original sounding basslines.
The above advice was mainly in the context of soloing. You can't play too randomly if you are playing a bassline over the changes, in which case you, as the bass player, become the harmonic underpinning for the melody or someone else's solo. When walking a line, you can be a little free as long as you state the root or chord tone in the key places. For me currently, that means the strong beats - the "1" and the "3". On the weak beats - the "2" and "4", you can literally play any note you want and the human ear will ignore it. But when it comes to walking a jazz bassline, SCALE tones always work. They don't always have to be CHORD tones. I believe the most important thing to do when walking a line is to maintain the quarter note pulse. The note choices have some flexibility.
Having said that, I've heard some great players walk some lines that sound pretty random and they seem to work. Check out Eddie Gomez's bassline in Chick Corea's "Humpty Dumpty" for an example of that. But he's Eddie Gomez and he's probably doing stuff that I don't quite get yet. But the pulse is ALWAYS there.
But here's the thing about theory. It's theory. It's a set of guidelines, not a set of rules. There are no rules. Theory gives you a way of explaining things and a starting point to figure things out. But I'm coming to the understanding that the more you play, the more it becomes clear that you can do almost anything you want, if it's somewhat logical and played with sincerity and conviction.
Some advice. Don't be too hard on yourself if your solos kinda suck if you're new at it. It takes a serious amount of effort and study. It comes around very slowly, but just keep at it... And every solo isn't gonna be a masterpiece. Sometimes on a gig my solos seem so effortless and sometimes I'm just trying to grind out a couple of choruses so I can get back to playing my bassline. That creative thing really comes and goes... I'm still kinda new at it though.
I gotcha. I see where your coming from. As far as walking basslines how do you approach them? I've been playing 7 years, mostly classic rock. Never have really worked on that as much as I should.
- Apr 1, 2000
- 17,398
- 9,828
- Disclosures
- Endorsing Artist: Roscoe Guitars, DR Strings, Aguilar Amplification
For walking bass, throw out modes. Chord tones and approaches. That's what you need to concentrate on.
Basic explanation of the modes using the key of D major: D E F# G A B C# D
Notice there are 2 sharps in D major, C# and F# The modes are just names that describe the sound of each 2 sharp scale within the key of D.
What does that mean?
This means all 7 modes in the key of D major always have 2 sharps in the scale (F# & C#). It's the same D scale key signature for all of the modes (F# & C#) but they start on different notes within the D scale.
1. Start on D the first note of the D major Scale
2. Start on E the 2nd note of the D major Scale
3. Start on F# the 3rd note of the D major scale
4. Start on G the 4th note of the D major scale
5. Start on A the 5th note of the D major scale
6. Start on B the 6th note of the D major scale
7 Start on C# the 7th note of the D major scale
The modes are "versions" of the D Major scale, in other words D major is the parent scale and the modes of D are the children.
In other words, just play 2 sharps because thats the key signature of D. Below is a note by note explanation of the modes of D major. Its the same thing I wrote above just in more detail.
1. Ionian/major: D E F# G A B C# D
2. Dorian: E F# G A B C# D E
3. Phrygian: F# G A B C# D E F#
4. Lydian: G A B C# D E F# G
5. Myxolidian: A B C# D E F# G A
6. Aeolian: B C# D E F# G A B
7. Locrian: C# D E F# A B C#
All of the scales listed above are In the key of D major. Each mode starts on a different note of the D scale.
Knowing how many sharps and flats are in each major key is extremely helpful helpful to understand the modes.
Notice there are 2 sharps in D major, C# and F# The modes are just names that describe the sound of each 2 sharp scale within the key of D.
What does that mean?
This means all 7 modes in the key of D major always have 2 sharps in the scale (F# & C#). It's the same D scale key signature for all of the modes (F# & C#) but they start on different notes within the D scale.
1. Start on D the first note of the D major Scale
2. Start on E the 2nd note of the D major Scale
3. Start on F# the 3rd note of the D major scale
4. Start on G the 4th note of the D major scale
5. Start on A the 5th note of the D major scale
6. Start on B the 6th note of the D major scale
7 Start on C# the 7th note of the D major scale
The modes are "versions" of the D Major scale, in other words D major is the parent scale and the modes of D are the children.
In other words, just play 2 sharps because thats the key signature of D. Below is a note by note explanation of the modes of D major. Its the same thing I wrote above just in more detail.
1. Ionian/major: D E F# G A B C# D
2. Dorian: E F# G A B C# D E
3. Phrygian: F# G A B C# D E F#
4. Lydian: G A B C# D E F# G
5. Myxolidian: A B C# D E F# G A
6. Aeolian: B C# D E F# G A B
7. Locrian: C# D E F# A B C#
All of the scales listed above are In the key of D major. Each mode starts on a different note of the D scale.
Knowing how many sharps and flats are in each major key is extremely helpful helpful to understand the modes.
Personally, I think I'd be kinda hesitant about telling someone to throw something out. But everyone has his own way of doing things, I suppose. I believe all knowledge is good and given the choice of knowing something and not knowing, I'm gonna chose knowing 100% of the time. And we only have 12 notes to work with. No bassist is so good that he gets to add more than those 12 notes, and no bassist is so bad that they take notes away...
I hear Paul Chambers, Sam Jones and all the greats playing modal sequences in their walking lines all the time.
After having studied with Anthony Wellington once a week for about 4 years straight (and Victor W, occasionally), I know that the way they look at modes and consequently, the way I look at them "seems" to be vastly different than the way most bassist look at them. They don't hold any mystery to me. They are just notes, like any other.
Overall, I think people make way too much of the concept and make it murky when it's honestly very simple and logical, both in theory and execution. There is nothing hard about music. There is just stuff we may be unfamiliar with.
