Double Bass New Acoustic Image 'DOUBLESHOT'

[Ric Vice]

I'm not so sure that it would be that much different than stacking any other pair of cabinets. There's always some interaction.

Hard to say for sure, that's why I suggested you talk to Rick Jones as AI. The effect would be similar to one side of the vertically stacked Double Shots, however it would be more like taking say

four single 12" cabinets putting them in pairs, facing each pair in the opposite direction, so that they were firing to the right and left of each other (let's be glad we don't have to to that)

My guess is that there would definitely be some kind of phase issues between the two Double Shots set up that way. Now, whether or not that would be a problem is something Rick Jones only knows. I'm pretty sure, after talking to him this summer at the ISB convention, that
the Double Shot was intended as a standalone cabinet. I know two Upshots work, because
other TB members have done that. Question is, do you wan't to be the first one to try
a Dual Double Shot vertically, aligned, stack, at a cost of @$1,200.00? Just as a way of
comparison, I really thought that using two Euphonic Audio VL-108's would be great
with a Walter Woods MI-400-8 after all what could go wrong? Setting them up for an outdoor concert, created all kinds of feedback and very little usable volume, where a single VL-208 sounded incredible. Just my take however.

 

[OogieWaWa]

Oh,drat, I'm sorry, it's an EX112. The Eden D cab is about 103db W/m, so I'm sure it's a bit lower than that one, I can't seem to find a spec on it, but probably still a tad bit higher than the AI. Which would be fine, like I said, more forward focus but still get the benefit of the wide dispersion.

 

[Wasnex]

I'm not so sure that it would be that much different than stacking any other pair of cabinets. There's always some interaction.

I don't think dispersion will be a significant problem with two Doubleshots that are tightly packed together.

Combining a Doubleshot with another speaker type will get into in phase and group delay problems in the low end that could definitely cause problems. When you have a tuned port it introduces phase errors and group delay. This is one of the primary concerns with mixing dissimilar cabs.

Crossovers also introduce phase errors. There should be some engineering in the crossover to get the woofers and mid driver in the Doubleshoot to integrate properly. Introduce another driver that covers the same frequency range and it will likely cause cancellation or at least some steering of the dispersion pattern at some frequencies.

 

[OogieWaWa]

Wasnex, thanks, I see what you're saying. Plus there's the fact that the phasing may be really strange with the drivers being at basically two 90 degree angles to each other, I can't even think of anything in a similar configuration to compare it to.

 

[Wasnex]

Wasnex, thanks, I see what you're saying. Plus there's the fact that the phasing may be really strange with the drivers being at basically two 90 degree angles to each other, I can't even think of anything in a similar configuration to compare it to.

At low frequencies the angle doesn't matter because all of the drivers will be omnidirectional. The phase and group delay matters because all drivers need to be moving in and out in perfect sync.

The angle becomes important as the frequency increases and the drivers begin to exert pattern control. The woofers are configured in a bipole arrangement. Bipole means the two 10s are connected in phase. They move in and out at the same time. I.E. they move in opposite directions.

At low frequencies the sound wraps around the speaker. As the frequency increases, the sound starts shooting out straight to the left in right in the direction the woofers are aimed. This is where you need to bring the mid driver in to fill out the sound in front of the cab.

Acoustic Research used to make some high end stereo speakers that use this same basic configuration (and I really wanted a pair).

Here's an image of the Acoustic Research AR9. I believe the bipole 12s at the bottom of the cab were crossed over at 200hz.

 

[Ric Vice]

Interesting, and very informative. I'd still want to try it before I spent $1,200.00 on it. Just my take however. I'm not a fan of dual cabinet configurations for DB. They work great for stereo speakers, loved my 3 way Boston Acoustics, but
my preference is to get a larger speaker to do the job. So, I have a MAS 1/8 for small gigs, and a MAS 4x5.5 for the bigger ones. Just my preference however, some folks love that setup. Neither one of my cabs is super large, but the bigger
one does have lots better coverage.

 

[bassically_eli]

I have an Eden EX112-8 Ohm, and I think it's sensitivity is much higher than 90dB. It sounds significantly more sensitive than my MAS-26, which is rated at 96dB.

 

[bassically_eli]

When you have a tuned port it introduces phase errors and group delay.

Would it be any safer if the second cab was sealed, like the DoubleShot? My intuition about mixing two dissimilar cabs has been that two sealed cabs are the safest bet, but I could be totally wrong.

 

[Wasnex]

Would it be any safer if the second cab was sealed, like the DoubleShot? My intuition about mixing two dissimilar cabs has been that two sealed cabs are the safest bet, but I could be totally wrong.

I am not an expert on the matter, but my assumption is the same as yours.

However, for multiple reasons, I suspect the Doubleshot is not be an ideal cab for mixing.

 

[bassically_eli]

However, for multiple reasons, I suspect the Doubleshot is not be an ideal cab for mixing.

I'm with you there, and it's why I haven't bought one. I don't think one will cover my louder gigs, which are mostly bass guitar gigs, and I don't want to mess with the mixing and matching. Two stacked DoubleShots sounds interesting, but I'm not going to spend the $1200. Too bad, because I really, really want to try the DoubleShot!

 

[Ric Vice]

While I've always preffered front ported cabinets vs rear ported, the Thunderchild 112 (rear ported) sounds really great, with that particular cabinet you have

the option of sealing the ports or leaving them open. The cabnets frequency response in the low end isn't the same, but it's still very good. As good as the

Double Shot is, and believe me it's really good, one of the TC-112's will give you more avaliable volume and coverage with a single 12" speaker if were

talkin' 5 String Electric Bass. I just don't mix cabinets, it can work, but it's not my preference. If the job takes more volume, I'm gonna need a bigger boat.

 

[rickwolff]

While I've always preffered front ported cabinets vs rear ported, the Thunderchild 112 (rear ported) sounds really great, with that particular cabinet you have

the option of sealing the ports or leaving them open. The cabnets frequency response in the low end isn't the same, but it's still very good. As good as the

Double Shot is, and believe me it's really good, one of the TC-112's will give you more avaliable volume and coverage with a single 12" speaker if were

talkin' 5 String Electric Bass. I just don't mix cabinets, it can work, but it's not my preference. If the job takes more volume, I'm gonna need a bigger boat.

 

[Karl Kaminski]

If the job takes more volume, I'm gonna need a bigger boat.

 

[SRL]

I currently use either an upshot+clarus or a Genz Benz shuttle 3-10, pretty much exclusively with the Chuck Israels microphone (although occasionally I use the Ischell contact microphone). The choice of cabinet is driven by the size of venue and whether I'm inside or outside. More often than not there is no pa support. (These work for me from duos to big bands.)

I'm wondering how much extra the double shot would give over and above the Genz Benz. Also whether a surround sound style of speaker would create problems with feedback for a microphone.

I know the Genz is small, but it still normally requires me to make two trips, and when you have to park 10 minutes walk from the venue it's a pain...

To answer myself, I got hold of a double shot, and have used with a big band and various small groups. Seems good to me.

Only problem at my last gig was my clarus packed up. The power light and other LEDs all started flashing. It's gone back to be looked at. In the meantime I'm wondering about the necessity to carry a spare amp head - any ideas on how the TC BAM 200 head would perform?

 

[DoubleMIDI]

To answer myself, I got hold of a double shot, and have used with a big band and various small groups. Seems good to me.

Only problem at my last gig was my clarus packed up. The power light and other LEDs all started flashing. It's gone back to be looked at. In the meantime I'm wondering about the necessity to carry a spare amp head - any ideas on how the TC BAM 200 head would perform?

What about using the Shuttle head as a spare amp? It is very small and light if you dismount it from the cab.

 

[SRL]

What about using the Shuttle head as a spare amp? It is very small and light if you dismount it from the cab.

Indeed, I'm using the shuttle head whilst the clarus is away being repaired. But having an amp head break on me mid set mid song has left me nervous. Fortunately we had pa support so I went direct to the mixing desk. Normally I play with no pa support and in that case I would be stymied. Hence I would like to carry something as small and light as possible in case it happens again. (This is the second time I be had equipment fail on me and I don't like the place it puts me in...)

 

[jmlee]

Indeed, I'm using the shuttle head whilst the clarus is away being repaired. But having an amp head break on me mid set mid song has left me nervous. Fortunately we had pa support so I went direct to the mixing desk. Normally I play with no pa support and in that case I would be stymied. Hence I would like to carry something as small and light as possible in case it happens again. (This is the second time I be had equipment fail on me and I don't like the place it puts me in...)

I carry a Gallien-Krueger MB200 as my backup head. Really, any of the small 200 watt heads (Trace-Elliott ELF, the TC BAM) would do the job and they don't weigh much. With the DoubleShot being a 4 ohm cab you can get quite a lot of bang out of a 200 watt solid state head.

 

[Ric Vice]

Only problem at my last gig was my clarus packed up. The power light and other LEDs all started flashing. It's gone back to be looked at. In the meantime I'm wondering about the necessity to carry a spare amp head - any ideas on how the TC BAM 200 head would perform?

While the BAM 200 is an amazing little head for it’s size. I think of it as I would that little inflatable donut I have in the trunk of my car. You can definitely drive on that “spare” for a few days until you get your real tire repaired or replaced, but it’s not a good idea to use it for weeks on end. TC Electronics builds the BH 250 right above the BAM 200 that’s almost the same price and has a little more power and the BH 500 that’s a lot more power and very reasonably priced.

 

[bassically_eli]

any ideas on how the TC BAM 200 head would perform?

According to the math, you'll lose about 5dB off the max volume vs the full 600 Watts. So, theoretically, that would be about 113dB vs 118dB. Of course, the big disclaimer is that power ratings across manufactures can be wildly inconsistent, blah blah blah. Other than that, there's no reason it shouldn't work. So far, TBers seem to love the BAM200.

 

[bassically_eli]

All just add that you can always cut the bass and boost the mids and highs a bit to cut through the mix when the volume is loud. Not a bad compromise for a backup head. I think you'll be hard put to do better than the BAM if size and price are of primary importance.
If you want more power in an uber light head that's affordable, then the Warwick LWA500 can be had pretty cheap. 500W, less than 3 lbs. There's a dealer selling them for $272 right now on Reverb, brand new with warranty. The input impedance is low, though, so you'll need a preamp/buffer if you use a piezo.