New Avatar Cab

[mbelue]

Man, I get sucked into these things from time to time when I should just back away.

Dude that probably describes everybody on here in every thread.
I think if any thread here happened in person these things wouldn't get so out of hand.
Folks'tone of voice could convey so much more than this stark text. Lots of us would laugh at the very same words that set us off when we read them.
Then there are those people that would be less of a dick in person. That would help too.

 

[Bmorefoozler]

I appreciate the awesome post, but to the above quoted section, I was of course referring to these


when speaking to the new trend in line array columns.
I actually have a pair of similar 4 x 12 column speakers like your link at my rehearsal space, and frankly, THOSE are speakers in a box, and they sound quite the crap too.

And again, in keeping with your explanation, I understand the phrase "S in a Box" just fine, it's just what I perceived the tone of it as is what I took exception to. If I read into it wrong I do humbly apologize to Seamonkey, but given the tone of other posts in his I've read in the past, I figured it to be less than benign in tone.

When I wrote the post you quoted, I ended with, and subsequently edited out, a snarky line about the above pictured speakers including mixed drivers and crossover networks, but felt it would not help matters in the discussion... ah well.

I agree with the prior sentiment that when the math and the senses agree, it's sublime. And in no way am I discrediting true high-spec tuning of enclosures that meet an ideal. I never would, but when persons pose this second hand knowledge in a discussion / argument as a matter of trying to volley an air of superiority in their posts is when it cheeses me off a tad. Man, I get sucked into these things from time to time when I should just back away.

Ok, and I get that too... but these new Line array's are BY FAR the best FOH has ever sounded, and it's not remotely close in my mind.
Physics DOES work... and those old school line array's were better then the previous box shape 4x PA speaker mains. I remember some old community 4x10 or 4x12 box shaped mains and boy did they have a serious beam to them... The new fangled line arrays are VERY intentionally designed and their speaker choices and x-over choices are very intentional, well thought out, etc. The angle of the arc is also well designed, etc. They are the epitome of the OPPOSITE of speakers in a box, well, I guess high end home theater and studio monitors are the exact opposite, but I digress. See some of Duke's home theater designs at https://www.facebook.com/AudioKinesis. I don't have to listen to these speakers to know they sound heavenly because the math/science behind them is top notch. While on the other hand, a speaker of unknown math/science will yield an unknown result. Unknown, is not always bad, that is the key, I believe, in this discussion.

I do understand the intent of your post, as there is a bit of "if it isn't designed perfectly, it's poo"
Honestly, with a lot of speakers and a lot of boxes, they "can" be pretty forgiving. Even BFM has a Simplexx series of boxes that accept several drivers with no significant changes, as he intentionally built a forgiving box that approximates a decent curve with several forgiving drivers. The difference is that Bill modeled them all and created a suitable "one size fits all" box, while the "assumption" is that Dave is sort of guessing. If he is truly guessing, it is equally possible that it sounds like poo or like Heaven, but honestly, most likely his guessing is fairly safe and it probably sounds pretty good. As will33 posted before, a fairly standard box volume and tuning will generally work fairly well with a wide range of drivers. I'm fairly certain Avatar "lives" in this realm.

 

[will33]

Nope...

I have my Avatar 112 under my Avatar 210 and they are DEFINITELY not the same box with different baffles. They're not the same exterior dimensions, the port is on different faces, not the same at all.

So your entire post becomes suspect because your fundamental opening assertion is factually wrong.

Then they changed how they build then. They used to make 2 basic boxes, the smaller 210/112 and the larger 212/410/tb153. Then the 412 is the guitar cab box built a bit deeper front to back.

 

[mcashworth]

To bring it back to the original post, I bid on that cab yesterday! Looks tight. Should be fine. I'm more of the camp that you should just play the freakin bass. I had hoped to score it as a light 2 banger. Not the end all be all of cabs but it looks sweet!

By the way I spoke with Dave last week as I was ordering a 112. Porting and cab specs really do matter to him. He told a great story about wanting to make the 112 and 210 cabs port the same way so they'd have the same appearance right? So he played with an inch here, take an inch there etc, make the port shelf longer or shorter, move the 12 up and down etc. All the while he was using engineering advice from eminence and also his ear. In the end he couldn't port his 112 on the long side because it kept losing a certain characteristic he had achieved, even though the programming was saying it could be done.
I appreciate the commitment to sound.

All this is to say I trust he's concerned with a decent product and he's not gonna let a piece of crap fly out with his name on it. Oh yeah built in the USA! Gotta love it.

PS he does use a cabinet shop to do the cuts. I think that makes a consistent product while keeping costs low. I hope I win the bid!

 

[bebass]

That was a LOOOONNNNNNGGGGG time ago then. Vertical 410's were very common going back to the 60's.
Link Removed
that is from 1978, but the Shure vocal master is one of the more Iconic such systems.

Speakers in a box, refers to someone stuffing speakers in a general sized box with general tuning. In most cases, it works fairly well. At Avatar's budget prices, that isn't a bad deal at all.
What is funny, is that when one understands that there IS NO PERFECT BOX, they can clearly understand how the Eminence 3012LF can be correctly designed to work in a variety of enclosures, as an example. Greenboy's design comes about different trade-offs then Duke Lejeune's as an example, and gasp, Duke even uses multiple different boxes with the same drivers as a manner of juggling those trade-offs for different goals. Duke even goes a step further and has a specific box with 2 different speakers available to further juggle trade offs in a different manner. The 1533E and 1533B is what I am describing. If one wants more emphasis on their B- string, he chooses a different driver and optimizes the tuning to accomplish that task.

Dave, who's ultimate goal is a decent product at a ROCK BOTTOM price, juggles his trade-offs different. His number one goal, is to reuse the box. I think it's not impossible to suggest that he generally just shoots for a generally decent tuning in said box, and lives with the results. I don't think that is the worst juggling of trade-offs ever. He uses Neo drivers, and then uses 3/4" plywood to still sort of be able to produce lightweight boxes at BARGAIN BASEMENT prices. His direct to consumer model allows he to be in the budget spectrum of prices, while providing a drastically superior driver and end product then say... Acoustic provides.
He has mentioned several times that Eminence helped him design his original box-size and tuning based on his custom drivers. The fact that he re-uses those boxes and "perhaps" adjusts his tuning, or perhaps does not is the question. I would be willing to bet, that they work fairly well, and while someone could clearly design a box around those speakers that chose different trade-offs and could produce better results for them, that may not be the case for everyone, and clearly that would require a greater cost to consumer to do so.
He has his niche, and I think he does fine in that niche.
The "proof" that he isn't a world renowned audio engineer can be as simple as looking at the ill-fated 1510 design(which, BTW, is sort of a Triad copy, so SWR fell into the trap as well, once upon a time). But the true value of Avatar, is that he listened, and produced the TB153 which really fits a niche and improved upon said failed design. While it is far from perfect, it is a more well designed system then many boutique manufacturers produce. While a fearful is objectively better, it is also more then twice the cost. It better be better. Better mid driver, x-over, driver placement, etc.

I, personally, don't see the desire to bash Dave and his product line. No, it's not perfect, but at least I can see how and why he juggles his trade-offs how he does, and his budget price is what, to me, proves he does a good job of doing so. the fact that mesa, Aguilar and other so called Boutique manufacturers that charge an arm and a leg for similar balanced trade offs shows me that.
When one understands there is no perfect box, and that all it ever is, is a balancing of trade-offs, it shouldn't be too hard to see that Dave produces a "good" product at a fair price.

I agree with this post. One has to look at the market. I would be interested in hearing what one of these sounds like. Tradeoffs are everywhere, even in good engineering. To expect perfect tunings, etc at this price point is asking a lot. If I didn't have so many speakers coming in I would buy one just to see.... I know I would hate to have to design a cab with these drivers and sell it at the same price - don't know how I could.

And on the column speakers of old, since this thread appears to be headed downhill I will add a little story about these "old" designs. Back in the early 80s we had a gig at a HS gym. Somehow the main band got billed as the backup band and us as the main band -- so they played first...and had gobs of modern PA gear, backline gear - it looked like someone had handed them 40K and said "Go Buy the best". We were late getting there, and were just a broke band with little equipment. We had a pair of those old EV column 12's (the point of this story). Looking at their setup I said to myself that there was no way in hades I could set us up to compete with that. SO I looked around and saw a small setback that was used for the sports teams and thought HMMMNNN, ACOUSTICAL heaven. Set up there and we actually totally blew away the other band with a much clearer sound. Those column speakers rocked the house!

 

[JMacBass65]

Speakers in a box, refers to someone stuffing speakers in a general sized box with general tuning. In most cases, it works fairly well.

What is funny, is that when one understands that there IS NO PERFECT BOX, they can clearly understand how the Eminence 3012LF can be correctly designed to work in a variety of enclosures, as an example.

When one understands there is no perfect box, and that all it ever is, is a balancing of trade-offs, it shouldn't be too hard to see that Dave produces a "good" product at a fair price.

Great post, I decided to pull out the key points.......

 

[jnewmark]

Dave answers some questions about this cab, and the SB12 with mid here: http://www.talkbass.com/threads/avatar-sb112-with-mid.1108042/page-2#post-16483600 Sounds like he's not just " throwing speakers in a box".

 

[fhm555]

Speakers in a box??? What a silly idea! I hang my speakers from an old tie rack I scored from my dad when he retired. Got it nailed to a two by four stand and it rwaks!! Lightweight, easy to transport and sounds KILLER. I modeled it by carving the pieces (scaled down of course), out of bars of soap and it looked great in miniature so I went with the full size version.

Jokes aside, I've got a pair of avatar 112's I got second hand. I got them for two reasons, I needed something I could handle by myself after I got crippled up and could no longer schlep my near 100 lb Hartke 410XL without help, I got a killer deal from a fellow TB'er on them, and after they arrived they kicked butt with my Carvin BX500 and off the rack Highway one J bass.

OK that's 3 reasons, but who's counting. Oddly enough as many compliments as I got on my SWR/410 rig, I get as many (or maybe more) on my carvin/112 rig, and so far i have yet to play out using both cabs. One of them has been plenty for every thing I've done since I got them.

I'm oh so glad I'm a hapless moron who thinks my rig sounds really good. I could after all be a speaker sophisticate who could find enough fault with my cabs to feel the need to bag my head when using them in public.

Don't get me wrong, I still harbor a semi secret desire to build a fEARful box or two, but until I find a reason not to like my little avatars, I'll probably just continue to fight that (occasional) urge.

There is also the fact that I'm a part time amateur. I could afford multi thousand dollar rigs because I made money in my youth instead of music, but to me dropping five (or more) grand on an amp/cab rig would be like putting a pretty red bow on a hammer handle. It would make the hammer look really nice but wouldn't do a thing to improve my ability to drive a nail.

 

[will33]

I have some 4ohm Avatar 12" neo's here. Pretty much Daves version of a "Deltalite II LF" if such a thing existed.

Admittedly, I don't like their top end sound much on their own, though I'm not running the LPF Dave puts in his woofer---> tweeter cabs.

What they do do quite well is bring the beef. They're one of my favorites out of what I have here to run on the low side of biamped setups, either letting them run up to 800-1khz with a 6" PA mid on top, or 400-500hz with a 10" guitar speaker on top (for tone/character).

I might be in some kind of minority here liking to use guitar speakers on bass (for everything above the fat lowmids), but, Avatar has access to a ton of guitar speakers. I've sometimes wondered if a "1212/10" cab might be something they'd be interested in doing.

I know they did a 15/10 once but kind of botched the design, but a pair of their 12's with something like a Celestion G10 carrying the mids and highs would have to appeal to more than just me I would think.

Of course, it could also easily be done in 4ohms for SVT players. Their woofers can/do handle turning one of those up to where you get some power tube drive, and end up at about the right volume for rock bar gigs...nice big sound without blowing the doors off and not getting asked back....and can cover the stage at larger gigs.

 

[Kirk Bryant]

Somewhat off topic but still relevant I think. A question as to why after several years of the free availability of f type designs don't we see some commercial manufacturers putting faithfull F type cabs Out even if they didn't use absolutely top of the line components. After all it has been pointed out it can be done and I would Think the economy of scale of a larger manf. Would make them more affordable to the masses. And I am not assuming "everybody" would sell what they have and run out and buy one but I "DO" think a lot of people would. And if players saw more of these kinds of speaker cabs in the wilds they would probably be more in demand. You go Dave evidently the big guys are scared to do anything "new" (hardly) so I wish you the best and I have been watching your stuff for a few years With an eye towards buying and I applaud you for your efforts in this endeavor!

 

[bassinflorida]

I would quote BASSINFLORIDA'S post, but the quote function is not working when I view TB on my iPad, so.....

Just want to say, wait for a bit, bassinflorida, someone will come along and tell you you are wrong, in spite of your fist hand experience.

Then you will need to ditch the Avatar, and get a Berg or something.

Not to worry. Someone is always waiting in line to tell me I am wrong. Some may be correct. According to the philosophy of 'Ted'.... "in the end, no one really gives a s___!"

 

[Jeb]

I had a heavy B212 that I used for years with excellent performance. I sold it because although it sounded good, it was just too big and way too heavy. So now I run a couple of the 210 neos vertically stacked. Also excellent performance. They sound like my bass. Hell, everything I play through sounds like my bass. But these cabs are extremely rugged and well built, sound like a bass, lightweight and made in the US. When I played through them last night, there were a lot of people dancing, smiling and everyone was having a good time. And then I loaded them out into my Honda Civic, went home and then went to bed. That's my Avatar story.

 

[shoot-r]

These are probably just speakers in a box.

Check into a T.B. favorite, Bergantino, (and a "BUNCH" of other commercial bass cabinet manufacturers as well).
They ALL do this.
Research Berg's NV610 and NV412 series, all the same box, different driver sizes and arrangement.
Same with their 210 CN/HD and 410 CN/HD, 212 CN/HD and 112 CN/HD series cabinets.
Avatar didn't invent the one size box fits all.....