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New found respect for John Paul Jones.

#22
KevtheRev said:
I'll forego a comparison of record sales. JTE, let's hear some of your work...I'd like to know how much weight to give to your opinion.

Critics come cheap.
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So I guess you are saying that you have NEVER criticized a band that sold a bazillion albums???? Seriously.... You have NEVER had ANYTHING bad to say about the talent, sound, or songs of a band that has sold tons of albums????

BULL$#!T

Critics of other critics come even cheaper.
 
#23
Last response...

Off the top of my head there's Larry Carlton (who I think IS a competent guitarist). Find the Guitar Player Magazine interview from around 1987 where he is asked about Page. He says the only thing he ever found interesting was the solo on "Whole Lotta Love", until he found out it was all worked out before hand.

I stand by my paramters for a good song. A good SONG is one where the essence stands alone from the recording and a particular performance. "Sunshine of YOur Love" isn't a great song, "Here, There, and Everywhere" is. "Stairway To Heaven" isn't, "Behind Blue Eyes" is.

Too bad that it's so hard to discuss Zepplin without some people getting their panties in a wad. And it's sad that stuff detracts from the intelligent and reasoned interplay of ideas. I don't think Zep sucks at all. They're just not in my estimation as good as their reputation is.


TT (no FN for this thread)

jte
 
#24
So after 40 years you've finally realized JPJ played great bass on Zep II? Congratulations. Very perceptive.
Maybe in another 22 years you'll realize Nevermind is a great album.
Keep at it, you'll get it.
JTE said:
Ah, well these are the responese I expected. I don't dislike Zep as I dislike hair-metal, Nirvana, and contemporary country artists. It's just that I don't think the MUSIC is as good as the band's place in pop culture would reflect. I don't mind sloppy playing if it's passionate (I like Neil Young), but you gotta bring something to the table and Page AS A SOLOIST is lacking in passion, techinique, and frequently interesting ideas.

As a producer, and as an orchestrator of guitars he's great. Layering lots of rhythm guitars, getting specific sounds out of different isntruments and blending them together, and then getting them to come out of little home stereo speakers- he's great!!! Getting Bonzo's drum sounds on vinyl is genius.

The comment about performance relates to the live recordings I've heard over the last 30+ years. The SONGS don't hold up without that specific performance. The original four memebers playing the songs live is what I'm talking about.

YMMV, and the point wasn't really to dis Zep, even knowing it was gonna come off that way. It was to point out that Jone's obvious musicianship got lost FOR ME in the things about Page and Plant that drove me away from Zep's music. So even though I've been paying attention to them since my buddy Phil played the brand new Led Zepplin II record for me decades ago, I never knew what a great bassist Jones was. The annoying breathless affectation from Plant and then his banshee scream along with the stupid lyrics of "What Is and What Should Never Be" kept me from appreciating the great bass work there.

jte
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#27
So 22 years ago Larry Carlton said he didn't find Page's solos interesting. Fair enough. Judging from his genre, I wouldn't expect Larry Carlton to be that into Led Zeppelin. His criticism is pretty limited and he's Larry Carlton.
It's not some pretentious twaddle like "It's just that I don't think the MUSIC is as good as the band's place in pop culture would reflect. I don't mind sloppy playing if it's passionate (I like Neil Young), but you gotta bring something to the table and Page AS A SOLOIST is lacking in passion, techinique, and frequently interesting ideas." from JTE.
JTE said:
Last response...

Off the top of my head there's Larry Carlton (who I think IS a competent guitarist). Find the Guitar Player Magazine interview from around 1987 where he is asked about Page. He says the only thing he ever found interesting was the solo on "Whole Lotta Love", until he found out it was all worked out before hand.

I stand by my paramters for a good song. A good SONG is one where the essence stands alone from the recording and a particular performance. "Sunshine of YOur Love" isn't a great song, "Here, There, and Everywhere" is. "Stairway To Heaven" isn't, "Behind Blue Eyes" is.

Too bad that it's so hard to discuss Zepplin without some people getting their panties in a wad. And it's sad that stuff detracts from the intelligent and reasoned interplay of ideas. I don't think Zep sucks at all. They're just not in my estimation as good as their reputation is.


TT (no FN for this thread)

jte
Click to expand...
 
#28
JTE said:
Last response...

Off the top of my head there's Larry Carlton (who I think IS a competent guitarist). Find the Guitar Player Magazine interview from around 1987 where he is asked about Page. He says the only thing he ever found interesting was the solo on "Whole Lotta Love", until he found out it was all worked out before hand.

I stand by my paramters for a good song. A good SONG is one where the essence stands alone from the recording and a particular performance. "Sunshine of YOur Love" isn't a great song, "Here, There, and Everywhere" is. "Stairway To Heaven" isn't, "Behind Blue Eyes" is.

Too bad that it's so hard to discuss Zepplin without some people getting their panties in a wad. And it's sad that stuff detracts from the intelligent and reasoned interplay of ideas. I don't think Zep sucks at all. They're just not in my estimation as good as their reputation is.


TT (no FN for this thread)

jte
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taken out of the context of the times,you could say that about hendrix too........i think that in the shadow of all the great players who have come along after,some of it does not hold up as well.....but when it came out,zep was truly groundbreaking,as was hendrix.......and most of it does stand up after four decades.......i believe the rep is as valid as ever.......now clapton ,on the other hand......i think is/was over rated
 
#31
Why do people give such a crap about other people's opinions of their favorites? If all music satisfied everyone, there would be no need for different kinds of music. The dude doesn't like Zeppelin. I don't agree but I'm certainly not going to get panty-bunched over it or challenge him to produce his own music in response. That's his opinion and he's welcome to it, no matter how much it flies in the face of your delicate sensibilities. Get over it.
 
#32
Well, for that matter, listen to these:
Good Times Bad Times
What Is And Should Never Be
Livin' Lovin" Maid
Gallows Pole
Celebration Day
Tangerine (bridge)
Stairway To Heaven (solo)
... ...
Dude could play (and he snuck in the funk).
bullshark said:
Always liked Led Zep as a band but I've never really been that attentive to JPJ work as a bassist in that band. Don't know why, really, t'was just like that. Maybe because he never had that exuberant flashiness displayed by the other members?

Until I tried my hand at playing The Lemon Song. Wow. Serious groove in there, and no two bars played exactly alike throughout the song. A serious display of musicianship.

I must say, I'm not going to be so quick to dismiss any fellow bassist work from now on, keeping my ears open instead of going by assumption, I might just learn more this way.
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#33
JTE said:
Well, I know a lot of guitarist who put Page into the "Recognition deserving bigger talent" category.

Many fabulous songs? OK, give me some SONGS that have lyrics and music that both make sense and can stand alone from the production and performance. Can you reinterpret the song without having to play it just like the record and the song is still fabulous? That's what a SONG is- the essecne boiled down away from who played what.

jte
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I agree with you entirely, looks like its just us two who think that haha.

Led Zeppelin is probally the most annoying band ive ever listened to, hell id rather listen to some prog-metal or even grind, and thats pushing it for me.

I just can't listen to this band and take them seriously, wankery and sloppy guitar and a vocalist who sounds like he is having an orgasm on the mic, then again this is IMO.
 
#34
Well, ignoring the whole Page/Plant/Zeppelin discussion and getting back to John Paul Jones, has anyone checked out his more recent solo work, Zooma or The Thunderthief? They came out in 1999 and 2001 on the Discipline Global Mobile label and it's some pretty cool stuff. Going only on the basis of these two albums it sounds like JPJ was the most progressive member of Zep even though I think Page tends to get the credit for that.

Plus, listen to all the instruments JPJ is credited with on the liner notes of The Thunderthief: 4, 6, 10, and 12-string basses, acoustic and electric guitars, mandolin, tripleneck mandolin (***?), electric mandola, piano, organ, synth, Kyma, koto, autoharp, and ukelele.
 
#36
I don't think Led Zeppelin's songs were, as a whole, as good a collection of songs as Lennon/McCartney, Pete Townshend, Bob Dylan...

but so what? 'good songs' wasn't the point of Led Zeppelin... the point was the SOUND of the band... that vast viking juggernaut trampling over entire continents... projecting a sensory blitzkrieg of Enormodome-levelling proportions

not very good songs??? who cares?? true, but irrelevant

I think the same about U2... their songs aren't fantastic, but the music is fit for purpose, so to speak

I love Jimmy Page's sloppy playing, I love Bonham's groove... I love JPJ's understated competence ( :) ), and I love Plant's ridiculous 'Golden God' yelpings... but like that guy said, they didn't write many songs that could stand up particularly well when removed from the context of their performance

entirely the opposite to someone like Bob Dylan or the Beatles, whose performances of some of their greatest songs could be frequently described best as 'adequate'
 
#37
Hell from my understanding JPJ was actually the most studied musician from the band, at least of my knowlege that is what i have known, he is great, very great, one of my biggest influences of bassplayers i have...

And well Love Zepellin but i agree The Beatles are better on the composition, but that is off topic so going back to it..

Love JPJ Blues lines and all his aportation to bass playing just like Macca..
 
#38
Really, most of the timeless bands are a bit overrated. You almost have to be to be put on such a pedastal. I like LZ and respect them and thier contributions to the history of Rock. But in my opinion, I like Plant the best of all of 'em. I think JPJ was a good bassist too but it is Plant that stands out to me the most. I also like some of the strange directions they took with songs like Going to California and Stairway to Heaven. I have heard so much of them over the years though that I dont think I have intentionally listened to LZ in close to 20 years.
 
#39
JimmyM said:
If all music satisfied everyone, there would be no need for different kinds of music.
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Now there's a good thought!

I, for one, have also come to appreciate JPJ's talent after playing some of the Zep stuff in my most recent band...having finally found a guitarist who could do Jimmy justice...or was that injustice? Wait, maybe it's because my guitarist was so sloppy? Or was it that his solos were not original?

Geez...I get so confused. ;)
 
#40
Kindofblue said:
wankery and sloppy guitar and a vocalist who sounds like he is having an orgasm on the mic
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Wait I thought we were talking about JPJ and Zep here? This quote sounds like RUSH on every song they did prior to their recording "Moving Pictures".

Hey if you don't like a group it's OK. There's a bunch I don't like too.

The solution is easy - don't listen to them. How how easy was that?

Later
 

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