New Mike Adler TWELVE STRING BASS????

[JAUQO III-X]

MikeBass where did you hear my CD at?

 

[Brad Johnson]

I know guys who are well under 6' who have no problem playing ERBs... because they WANT to. What some think are physical limitations are actually technique issues. A friend of mine who's about my height was having wrist problems playing a Roscoe Beck 5. I suggested he raise the angle at which he held the bass (raised the headstock up) and the problem went away.



I thought the question about Al's gig was a little odd... the obvious reason would be because it's his bass and he wants to play it... and it was

I play 4,5 and 6 string basses. Maybe I'm lucky but no one has every commented on the number of strings I bring. If I'm holding a four, I play a four. The same is true for anythng else I grab. I personally like more strings in smaller settings like trios or when there's less chordal instruments to clash with.

I thought it was very cool that Al used his Bene on the VW gig, I thought it showed that the job's biggest factor was the bassist, not what he brung. For some I guess it didn't.

 

[MikeBass]

One of the guys who saw you at the Detroit Bass Fest got it I assume from you or your web site. I may have heard it at Low Down if I recall.
I was at the show as well, but you only talked about your sub contra bass, never played it.

BTW, leaving for Chicago (E. Lansing actually) in about 30 min!
Be there all weekend working at the Ford plant on Torrence Ave.

 

[MikeBass]

Jauqo, just checked out your site. It may have been the same tunes you have posted.
I couldn't pin point the exact tunes, but they seemed to in the same style.

 

[mheintz]

I am interested in ER instruments. (Perhaps, just too much time at work and not enough time behind my upright, but nonetheless.) For me, an ER instrument would be a completely new challenge, which would require a huge time commitment. Given that someone like me would have to learn everything all over, what would be the benefit of learning a 12 string adler vs. a warr phalanx vs. a grand stick vs. a ns/stick vs. heck... a keyboard. In other words, what is that attracted the ER players among you to your particular instrument? Sometimes, I find myself interested, but think that my skills and my bank account would be better off with a keyboard.

 

[Garry Goodman]

"Umm...I think your taking my comments differently from what I intended. I know it's black and white, but your response seems to be slightly miffed and a little condisending. Maybe not, so I'll respond as if I read the message with a smile "

It's not part of my m.o. to be condescending.It's counter productive.I am just trying to answer your questions, and I don't know where you are at as a musician. You stated your were just "toying around" with a 7,and I have been playing the same 7 for 18 years.So i don't know where you are at. No attitude intended.




"As for the "smells like a bass", OK, sure. Just my observation but I call a fish a fish and I do consider it a bass FWIT. My question went kind of un-answered. In a traditional sense (very subjective) it's performing bass functions with the added bonus of an extended range agreed?"
Not exactly. i wanted the bass to do specif solo and duo projects,and i can bring it out on a gig.I can handel any musical situation with this instrument.

"For me as soon as you step into using the full range as you state for covering piano tunes, well it's a extended ranged whatever. A piano is just that, a piano. Call it what you want/need, just refer to the thoughts that the luither who built it was having. "

The 12-string was a concept that developed out of my dissatisfaction with my Stick back in 1975.I have been transcribing piano pieces for 35 years to bass.My Italian is poor, but I still accept the name,Piano.
Mike built the bass,but he didn't just build it for the sake of building it.We discussed this instrument for quite a while. It has 12-strings,it has mostly bass strings but it has 92 notes. We use in line to keep people from getting confused with Tom Petersen's concept of a 12 string. 92 note guitar works for me.That let's you know it's not a 3x4 12 string.

Dave posted a picture of the WARR instruments and Chapman makes sticks tuned in 4ths with the lowest string on top like a bass( too bad he didn't make them like that in 1975!). Both of those instruments are great and are easy on the hands.



"I never doughted the reasons for why a keyboard player plays left hand bass, and agree with you on your statements about such. I too have lost gigs to keyboard players. But I would assume that maybe a keyboard player wouldn't have to sweat his gig much to someone playing an ERB. Well, not yet at least. Sure you'll tell me you were hired over a keyboard player in some cases. Good for you, make a statement on you ERB, because it will trickle down and help us all to some degree."


I think you and I have had similar experiences as players,and also some very different experiences.A piano player doesn't sweat his gig much to someone who plays an ERB.I don't go after pianist's gigs.
In this case,it's not a "someone",it's me. This concept was not intended for Garry Goodman "sideman". This concept was intended for Garry Goodman "composer,recording artist". People enjoy the music on my new CD,and many don't know or care how many strings the bass has. However, if I didn't have those strings,the bass parts wouldn't sound the same. I am hired for gigs because of me as a musician,not the bass I use.On solo gig,I perform as a solo guitarist,harpist etc. would.


I have owned a music production company for over 20 years. I compose,arrange, produce,market and play on Jingles,Film scores ,T.V. shows,radio station I.D. packages etc. I hire myself as the bass player( i only fired myself twice).I have used a 7 string bass since the 80's on the bass tracks.

"I think the reason keyboard players are assumed to be the center of the universe as you put it also has to do with the range of sounds available to them. Which is quickly becoming available to us as well. Again, thanks!"

Mike made this dream a reality.It is my job to play the thing well,in a way that justifies having 92 notes.The electronics are breath taking,so is the pickup.If you listen to "Bubble Work" on my cd,you will hear a new way to create a bass part with the 11-string and also hear a very clear ,low open C# string.it functioned in a very piano like way.

"A keyboard player playing a C Maj scale anywhere on the keyboard is the same. Not true on a 9 or 11 string. "
-yes it's the same on a 9 and 11- the major scale formula stays the same on any instrument:
1-1 -1/2- 1-1-1- 1/2"
Again, missed my point. Play a CMaj scale at C0, now play it at say, C3 or C4. Depending on which string you start on, it's level of ease is different. I don't need a lesson on how a Maj scale is played, but thanks for the refresher.
Maybe for you the bass is easy as hell to play. I'm 6' 225 with average size hands for my build and playing a 4, 5, 6 and a 7 string bass imposes different stresses on my wrists and forearms. I refuse to believe anything further with the exception of your hands/wrists are more tolerant. The fact that the width of the neck plays a roll is undeniable."



I didn't get you were refering to the change in fret spacing on a bass ,where a piano keys remain consistant in size.I have small hands (and owned two Buick Roadmasters).There is nothing hard about playing this fretboard.i am glad you restated the comment.The scale reference was what I thought you were refering to.


"As far as "it's an Adler bass" doesn't hold much. So what. That it is an Adler or Conklin, your still playing a wide neck."

Did you read the entire thread? It does matter it's an Adler bass. That's why I asked him to build this. The 12-string neck is like 3/4" thick-I've never seen a Conklin or any bass anywhere with a neck profile that thin.You can stand on this neck. it doesn't move.With a neck that thin the width is not a problem.The 12-string neck is not as wide as the 11-string neck.(link to photos of both basses on same page earlier in thread)



"The fact that it was made for you, to your specs makes much more sense. Adlers are more than likly on par with anyone else in high end basses."
In my humble opinion,there only a handful of basses that are crafted as well as Adler basses.As with trying to get a 7 string custom made in the late 70's and early 80's, not everyone is willing to take on a task like building an in line 12-string.


"I don't know that Vanessa Williams gig could be played on a 4 or 5 outside of covering her tunes in various Top40 bands and listening to her tunes on the radio and seeing her videos and being general-ly familiar with the basic pop/R&B Adult Contemporary music that she plays.
Al may be the nicest guy with more musicianship than any of us could ever hope for. Who cares why he chooses what he chooses."

Why are you on this thread if you don't care what basses he uses?

"The fact that he plays what he wants is really his buisness and the most important fact, but I have a hard time believing that "Maybe he plays the double stop note at measure 31 in quadruple stops,giving it a thick rich sound that only 4 notes can do." is gonna make or break the tune.'
don't disbelieve until you a/b a track.How do you know that synth track you hear isn't AL's midi 9 playing the part?

" Sure it may sound rich, not denying that, but....well, I guess we disagree here. And until I see VW live with Al, then I'll have an open mind about what your saying. They still play the "hits" and the like and they are there to see VW, not VW with Al Caldwell on 11 string bass. I'm sure he uses it, but he isn't flailing around on it every tune, if he did, they would have a bass player
But something tells me if Al left the gig, they would be looking for a qualified bass player, with any bass ERB or not. Not just an ERB.

Man.... I think you need to re-read the thread. I posted I encountered flack from a production when I showed up with the 11-string .After hearing what i did with the 11-string because the MD hired me for me and not someone else, the producer, director and cast became spoiled and now want the 11-string on this year's run.They won't settle for a 5 string player. The sub sonic parts along with some triple stops made the band sound fresh and unique.



"I've heard Jauqo's CD. It's cool, but didn't change my mind on anything. It's his thing. I happy with the range I have right now. Maybe I'll change my mind later, who knows."

What kind of monitors did you hear it on? What part of your thinking didn't change?

"And Garry, I would hope that your 12 fits you perfectly, you ordered it that way. And no, they may not make sense to me and so be it, but at least try to help someone understand."

I have been doing my best. i'm a bass player,we all are bass players here, so that's why we discuss this stuff here. It turned out better than I could imagine, and that's why i am sharing this on the thread. Adler is an exceptional luthier.

"Again your response came across with a little air of contention. My questions/comments did not intend to look that way or be taken that way. I was just try to get inside you heads a little. "

we are cool, I didn't quite understand some of your questions/ comments, so i hope we are improving our communication.



"Al, play what you want, God Bless you for it. Your gig allows you the freedom, what more could you ask for.
My opinion was one that I thought I explained as being on the outside of what you guys are doing. No neeed for me to tread lightly. I never slandered or degraded you for what your doing and how you guys do it, just sheer phsyical size (width) of the neck keeps me baffeled and was the reason for my post!
To play the third fret G on a E string is pretty simple on a five. Not so on a 11 or whatever. Maybe not for you and Garry (hands like Buicks??), but for the masses of us it imposes, as I said, different stresses on wrists and the like. And to play in that basic range most of the night is where most bass players play. So a neck that wide makes the logistics of doing it a little different."


I don't know which 11-string you played (there's two, you know!). I have played both,and my small hand had no problem playing either one. The 12-string was intended as a custom order, not to unleah on the bass player population to intimidate bass players into having more strings.When my Tobias was completed in the 80's , I never imaginged builders would take the idea and turn it into a mass production item.It may have made them money and produced some 7 string bass players, but it created a rift that still exists today. They were building basses that no one had ever built before) for people who never played them before(except me,and maybe one other guy).Guys like John Turner embraced the idea right away,but for some,this caused anxiety that continues today.
The 7+ strings are not for everyone. It's perfectly fine to play a 4 or 5 or 6 string bass.Look at all the great players that do.

If you are going to play 9+ strings, i feel you had better do things that can only be done on a 9+ string instrument.Yes,take it to the gig, but when someone asks "what do you need all those strings for?" Play them something that will change there minds about 4+ octave basses.

 

[MikeBass]

Garry,
I don't have the time right now to really respond as I'm try like hell to get out of town and to Chicago!!

But thanks for your reply to my reply to, well your reply!!!

You seem like a good guy and I talked to Ryan from Low Down Sound a bit ago and he said the same. He met you while you guys were walking into NAMM and you gave him your CD. He's gonna let me borrow it so I'll have a chance to give it a listen.

Where I'm at playing wise is not like you, but 20 years into playing bass, flute and a bit of piano and a lot of miles on the road have put me into a place where I can discuss your bass and not have you lose me too much

Take care and I'll chime in when I return home.

 

[MKS]

First of all, congratulations on your new bass Garry! After 17 pages, I'm not sure anyone has said that yet (although I might have missed something! ).

Second: Are you going to keep the 11 string as well, or can we expect to see it on Ebay anytime soon?

Thirdly (and more seriously) Mike (Adler): it must have been tough to source a fingerboard that was wide enough and free from blemishes and so on. Did you have to do any special preparation with it? I mean, it's rather larger than an average fingerboard, and so must pose problems from a stability point of view.

It's an impressive piece of engineering Mike, and definitely to your credit to make your and Garry's vision into reality.

All the best,
(another) Mike

 

[Jay Terrien]

Jim Wright is a MONSTER. He has an incredibly gifted musical brain.


Thankfully, I think that the majority of the mainstream "animosity" (envy?) towards players who chose to utilize ERBs will demise as soon as there is an ample amount of intelligently composed, "saleable" music that supports the "necessity" for such an instrument.

I know guys that have 7, 8, 9s, but they compose for and utilize only 1/2 of the fingerboard. Perhaps a 4 or a 5 would perform better in their hands? But again, it's all personal preference. I would simply like to hear more owners of ERBs making serious, conscious compositional decisions to "stretch out a bit" on their instruments and not be so "structured" (EX. "This album features me slapping simple octave chords and tapping on two/ten strings on my 10 string bass, because quite honestly, that's all I am technically and theoretically equipped to do") when they write.

I'd also like to hear the sounds of these instruments penetrate mainstream radio (which of course put them on an enjoyable collision with major label execs and "producers" who ain't letting anything but a Fender Style bass onto tape)!

Example: How would Meshuggah sound with a sub-contra tuning (goddamn frightening!)? Will Fieldy of KORN (yes, you can laugh, but he's the first "mainstream" guy I could think of) have one of our esteemed luthiers build him a 9 string, and if so, how would this change the overall soundscape of KORN? WOULD HE USE THE RANGE???? When David Dyson gets the New Kids On The Block, back on the block, will he shift to a low F# tuning to assist Joey MacIntyre and Jordan with their "groove"?

Get it?

Will any of this ever happen? Just curious.

\

I've seen Jim Wright from Warr Guitars play his Phalanx live. He does intricate bass and guitar parts in a way that would probably not be possible with the standard "Stick" tuning. He played Echinda's Arf, a complex Zappa tune with just himself and a drummer. And Red by King Crimson. It was an eye, er, ear opening experience. I got pics too:

- Dave

 

[Garry Goodman]

Mikebass -thanks

MKS-Thank you !Check out how much wider the 11-string neck is compared to the 12-i am not sure what will become of the 11-string.it's in dry dock right now.
(http://www.gopromusic.com/mostviewed.php)

Jay-I swear I used all 7 strings at once on my 7 string on 9 tunes on the"Tap Dance On A Cloud" cd.I only used 6 strings at once on the 11-string on track 10. I don't think you listened to my CD yet - But you have a seiously valid point.

 

[MKS]

Garry - It's kind of hard to see in those photos... What is the difference in the width of the neck (at nut and/or at the 24th fret)? How come the 12 is narrower? From Mike Adler's comments earlier you and he worked closely to get workable string spacing on the 12. Is that the main difference?

And oh yeah... <ref> "...it's black! Blacker than black. Well, a sort of *pastel* black..." </ref>

 

[Garry Goodman]

Garry - It's kind of hard to see in those photos... What is the difference in the width of the neck (at nut and/or at the 24th fret)? How come the 12 is narrower? From Mike Adler's comments earlier you and he worked closely to get workable string spacing on the 12. Is that the main difference?

And oh yeah... <ref> "...it's black! Blacker than black. Well, a sort of *pastel* black..." </ref>

It's so black you can't see the body when I wear black.Leave it to Mike to use Hot Road paint.I like it.


The 11-string is 17mm. I wanted the string spacing on this to be like Tobias #975, a seven string bass I have been playing for around 18 years.I am very comfortable with that spacing.Mike would have to tell you the exact neck thickness,but it doesn't seem to change between the nut and 24th fret.So the neck width is like the 11- minus two strings.Mike?

 

[adlerguitars]

If you added 2 more strings to the 12 the neck it would be as wide as the 11 string neck. For those of you who have played the 11 string or Jauqo's 8 string- the neck on the 12 is thinner. It’s well less than 3/4" thick.

As far as what happens to the 11 in the coming years, I think that I will take it off Garry’s hands when the time comes...


Mike

 

[john turner]

The 11-string is 17mm.

cool. i like 17mm spacing. what's the spacing at the nut?

 

[karrot-x]

I love the look of the bass, it feels like it would instill fear in those that aren't ready .

Time for some recordings?

 

[Garry Goodman]

John,
Mike could tell you the exact nut spacing.

As far as recording,the pre amps and eq are very high end.I will probably just record directly to my HHB 850 stand alone CD burner for some test recordings.I have a program in my lap top that might work as well.The stereo feature make for some interesting listening.Then i will figure out how to delete some old ausio posts from TB and put up some clips. Bass Guitars are a lot of fun-

 

[john turner]

John,
Mike could tell you the exact nut spacing.

As far as recording,the pre amps and eq are very high end.I will probably just record directly to my HHB 850 stand alone CD burner for some test recordings.I have a program in my lap top that might work as well.The stereo feature make for some interesting listening.Then i will figure out how to delete some old ausio posts from TB and put up some clips. Bass Guitars are a lot of fun-

if you need help with that garry let me know.

 

[Bernie Connors]

John,
Mike could tell you the exact nut spacing.

As far as recording,the pre amps and eq are very high end.I will probably just record directly to my HHB 850 stand alone CD burner for some test recordings.I have a program in my lap top that might work as well.The stereo feature make for some interesting listening.Then i will figure out how to delete some old ausio posts from TB and put up some clips. Bass Guitars are a lot of fun-

Awesome, Garry! Can't wait to hear em.

 

[adlerguitars]

on the 11 it's 9mm at the nut

 

[Garry Goodman]

John-yes i could use help deleting all my low C# audio clips.Trying to locate them in the sea of posts...

The .004 we put on the 12/92 (short for in line 12 string with 92 notes) has now lasted 8 days with 4 hours a day minimum of playing. I think it has proven itself as a viable addition to the plain string group.


Al Caldwell-have you tried that string yet?