NFL Week #6

[fo shizzle]

...speaking of "organizational issues", you're a Dallas Cowboys fan, right?





I assure you, he has all the support he needs at this point, and they'll drive that home to you on 12/19

Yep.........Our organizational issues gave us a fistful of rings.

This Giants/Saints game has me conflicted. My natural inclination is to root against the Giants (division rival,etc...). But, since the Cows have spotted the giants 3 games in the standings, I guess I will root against the Saints for wild card purposes.

With the added benefit of wishing failure on Gard's team....

 

[Gard]

This is another example of TURD's schizophrenic thinking. The argument to your post is that since the "new ownership" of the Dallas Cowboys, they have won 3 Super Bowls. Therefore, by your own admission, Jerry Jones played an important role in that. By your own admission, they would not have been possible without Jerry. By your own argument, he is on the tier of Patriots, Steelers, and past 49ers ownership. He is one of the elite. He is far better than the aints management, or any othe team for that matter.

However, if I had simply said, "Well geez TURD, (and yeah, I would have called you a turd), Jones has won 3 SBs," you would have been one of those people that claimed that it was just Jimmy Johnson, (even though Johnson wasn't so successful with good ownership and talent at the Dolphins).

Your theories twist and bend so easily and so much, I'm going to call you YOGI from now on. No, no, YOGI TURD. Yes, that's your new name.

Wrong answer, Waldo.

Jones had Jimmy Johnson when he got started, a coach that was his old college buddy. He couldn't get to pushing him around, because he was still learning the ropes.

But as soon as Jerry got a bit of understanding, what happens? Jimmy Johnson is gone, and replaced with the ultimate "yes man" in the universe: Barry "Oh, I forgot that I packed my gun in my suitcase" Switzer.

That was successful for a season or so, on inertia (see Tampa Bay, John Gruden), then it went in the toilet because Switzer wasn't capable of being lobotomized - there wasn't anything there.

Since that time, there has been either a "yes man" coach (Switzer, Phillips), or a hard nose guy that gets tired of Jerry's crap and walks (Parcells - who by the way is starting to have some real success in Miami, interestingly).

The ONLY reason for the early success in the Cowpatties organization was that Jerry Jones was either too frightened or too ignorant of professional football when he bought the team. He learned the game with Johnson's assistance, the proceeded to run the goose that laid the golden egg out of town on a rail...

Johnson's lack of success in Miami has zero bearing on anything, because he never had the level of overall talent in Miami that he did in Dallas, and Wayne Huizinga was almost as much of a tin-pot dictator as Jones was, except he'd already begun to be a meddlesome influence BEFORE Johnson got there.

 

[LilRay]

Johnson's lack of success in Miami has zero bearing on anything, because he never had the level of overall talent in Miami that he did in Dallas, and Wayne Huizinga was almost as much of a tin-pot dictator as Jones was, except he'd already begun to be a meddlesome influence BEFORE Johnson got there.

Don't forget the institution of the Salary Cap. Jones/Johnson built the 90's era Cowboys WITHOUT it. Jones would drop the $ at Johnsons request.

IMO They were the reason for the institution of the Cap. Especially after Jones Paying Deion Sanders the $.

HOWEVER By the time Johnson took the Miami job, the cap had been in place, thus A reason for their lack of success.They Johnson/Jones needed both Jerry's $ and Jimmys rule. Johnson could coach a winner again, but he'd need the same total control.

God Bless, Ray

 

[Gard]

Don't forget the institution of the Salary Cap. Jones/Johnson built the 90's era Cowboys WITHOUT it. Jones would drop the $ at Johnsons request.

IMO They were the reason for the institution of the Cap. Especially after Jones Paying Deion Sanders the $.

HOWEVER By the time Johnson took the Miami job, the cap had been in place, thus A reason for their lack of success.They Johnson/Jones needed both Jerry's $ and Jimmys rule. Johnson could coach a winner again, but he'd need the same total control.

God Bless, Ray

Excellent point, thanks Ray, I totally left out the salary cap rule.

Yeah...no more "buying a Championship" these days probably has had an effect on the fortunes of the Cowboys as much or more than anything else.

 

[thesteve]

So oddly enough, NFL betting lines are holding San Diego to be 3 point favorites over Denver.

 

[Gard]

So oddly enough, NFL betting lines are holding San Diego to be 3 point favorites over Denver.

That's the oddsmakers way of saying it's a "push", they give the three point margin to the home team.

Again, I think there is still some hangover from last season when Denver was pretty bad and San Diego was pretty good. I'm not saying the Chargers are bad, but Denver is MUCH better right now than they were a year ago...whether that continues remains to be seen, but basing it on what has happened so far this year, the edge really has to go to Denver.

 

[LilRay]

Excellent point, thanks Ray, I totally left out the salary cap rule.

Yeah...no more "buying a Championship" these days probably has had an effect on the fortunes of the Cowboys as much or more than anything else.

I made that point to reiterate my opinion of why Johnson was less successful at Miami. Johnson was a helluva football coach, his talents as such have nothing to do with his Miami success. Jerry Jones is incredibly business savvy, and that's where he should stay. He wants to "play" football coach and he's learning on the fly.

My point however has nothing to do with the "fortunes" of the Cowboys.

I will give the men involved in their success credit where it's due though.

God Bless, Ray

 

[Gard]

I made that point to reiterate my opinion of why Johnson was less successful at Miami. Johnson was a helluva football coach, his talents as such have nothing to do with his Miami success. Jerry Jones is incredibly business savvy, and that's where he should stay. He wants to "play" football coach and he's learning on the fly.

My point however has nothing to do with the "fortunes" of the Cowboys.

I will give the men involved in their success credit where it's due though.

God Bless, Ray

Hey, my beef with Jerry Jones isn't his business acumen, it's the fact that he doesn't know enough to leave his coaches alone to do the job he hires them for.

The thing is that his management style that is bad: as a manager myself, I know to not harass the guys I've got doing the jobs they were hired to do - seriously, imagine me going out in our shop and trying to tell someone that has 7-10 years of experience at building basses what to do! I have my skill set, and none of it includes cutting, gluing, or shaping wood, so I leave that to the guys that know what they're doing.

Jerry lacks that ability, and it will hamper the organization until either he learns to stop doing it, or he is no longer there. Jerry Jones is a good BUSINESSMAN, but a poor MANAGER of a business. If he can learn to make the "global decisions" for his organization and allow those that are there to implement them to do just that, the franchise would be more successful, IMO.

 

[LilRay]

Hey, my beef with Jerry Jones isn't his business acumen, it's the fact that he doesn't know enough to leave his coaches alone to do the job he hires them for.

The thing is that his management style that is bad: as a manager myself, I know to not harass the guys I've got doing the jobs they were hired to do - seriously, imagine me going out in our shop and trying to tell someone that has 7-10 years of experience at building basses what to do! I have my skill set, and none of it includes cutting, gluing, or shaping wood, so I leave that to the guys that know what they're doing.

Jerry lacks that ability, and it will hamper the organization until either he learns to stop doing it, or he is no longer there. Jerry Jones is a good BUSINESSMAN, but a poor MANAGER of a business. If he can learn to make the "global decisions" for his organization and allow those that are there to implement them to do just that, the franchise would be more successful, IMO.

I see your point, and I agree on JJ being a poor manager. But the franchises current success is only relative to "on the field" success.

After all the Dallas Cowboys as their own entity are one of the most successful franchises of any sport in history. Their "Brand" has always ranked in the top of all sports. Like it or not. That'd be the same to say the Yankees were in a similar situation. That will never detract from the brand and in turn it's $ making ability.

Dallas could be the worst in the league on the field and will still attain brand success and be high ranking at that.

Have you SEEN the new stadium?

God Bless, Ray

 

[Gard]

I see your point, and I agree on JJ being a poor manager. But the franchises current success is only relative to "on the field" success.

After all the Dallas Cowboys as their own entity are one of the most successful franchises of any sport in history. Their "Brand" has always ranked in the top of all sports. Like it or not. That'd be the same to say the Yankees were in a similar situation. That will never detract from the brand and in turn it's $ making ability.

Dallas could be the worst in the league on the field and will still attain brand success and be high ranking at that.

Have you SEEN the new stadium?

God Bless, Ray

Oh, we're talking about making money, not about winning games now, eh? Fine, yup, he's got that cornered, no question.

And yeah, the new stadium, aka Monument To Jerry Jones' Ego, sure have.

Watched the team christen it by losing....

 

[fo shizzle]

Hey, my beef with Jerry Jones isn't his business acumen, it's the fact that he doesn't know enough to leave his coaches alone to do the job he hires them for.

The thing is that his management style that is bad: as a manager myself, I know to not harass the guys I've got doing the jobs they were hired to do - seriously, imagine me going out in our shop and trying to tell someone that has 7-10 years of experience at building basses what to do! I have my skill set, and none of it includes cutting, gluing, or shaping wood, so I leave that to the guys that know what they're doing.

Jerry lacks that ability, and it will hamper the organization until either he learns to stop doing it, or he is no longer there. Jerry Jones is a good BUSINESSMAN, but a poor MANAGER of a business. If he can learn to make the "global decisions" for his organization and allow those that are there to implement them to do just that, the franchise would be more successful, IMO.

The contradictions in your post make me kinda dizzy.

JJ can't be a poor manager of a business and a good businessman at the same time. The business you're referring to has been stunningly successful, on the field and off. The undisputed MANAGER of said business is Jerry Jones. He is owner/president/gm of the Cowboys....... He has 3 Lombardi trophies of his own (with 2 other spares). He has a franchise that Forbes considers to be one of the most valuable in the world. And he owns a stadium that is the finest on the planet.

What is lost in all this is the fact that Jerry has ALWAYS run his businesses. Many want him to hire a "football guy". Jerry started on a national championship team in college and has 20 years experience in the NFL. Exactly how much time does a person need to become a "football guy"?

What he stuggles with is hiring coaches and it's a BIG problem. His first hire was a no brainer and it worked beautifully. His second hire was a head scratcher, but it yielded results, too. Since then, it's been a mess. Gailey, Campo, and Phillips never did belong in that position. Parcells? I believe him to be a one-time superstar whose time passed while here.

The next hire will tell the tale. Based on his life cycle with the Cowboys he is due to hire a high profile coach and let him do his thing. We'll see.

I'll take my guy. My guy wants to win. That puts him in rare company in the league.

 

[Gard]

The contradictions in your post make me kinda dizzy.

JJ can't be a poor manager of a business and a good businessman at the same time. The business you're referring to has been stunningly successful, on the field and off. The undisputed MANAGER of said business is Jerry Jones. He is owner/president/gm of the Cowboys....... He has 3 Lombardi trophies of his own (with 2 other spares). He has a franchise that Forbes considers to be one of the most valuable in the world. And he owns a stadium that is the finest on the planet.

What is lost in all this is the fact that Jerry has ALWAYS run his businesses. Many want him to hire a "football guy". Jerry started on a national championship team in college and has 20 years experience in the NFL. Exactly how much time does a person need to become a "football guy"?

What he stuggles with is hiring coaches and it's a BIG problem. His first hire was a no brainer and it worked beautifully. His second hire was a head scratcher, but it yielded results, too. Since then, it's been a mess. Gailey, Campo, and Phillips never did belong in that position. Parcells? I believe him to be a one-time superstar whose time passed while here.

The next hire will tell the tale. Based on his life cycle with the Cowboys he is due to hire a high profile coach and let him do his thing. We'll see.

I'll take my guy. My guy wants to win. That puts him in rare company in the league.

No contradictions at all my friend.

There is a difference between a "big thinker" businessman and a manager - I'm a MANAGER, I understand this. There's another guy around here that makes the BIG decisions, passes them to me, and I get them to happen, that's how it works.

Jerry thinks big, has good ideas, but can't implement them to save his @$$. He got LUCKY and won some championships early in his tenure as an owner, but has MANAGED himself into a corner since, because he doesn't hire a manager and let that person do the job they were hired to. His team hasn't won squat since what, '93? 15 years? Why? It's all the person at the top.

If he allows his football people to do their jobs - get a GM for the team, tell him to find the BEST POSSIBLE coach for the job, then let those two guys do what they do, he should be able to produce a winner.

He can't let go of the reigns though.

Until he does, expect what you have, a lot of hype and media attention, but nothing to back it up on the field.

 

[LilRay]

Oh, we're talking about making money, not about winning games now, eh? Fine, yup, he's got that cornered, no question.

My pont with that is to say THAT is where Jerry should stay because he far excels most in that reguard. Besides name me one "Owner/GM" that wins games.

And yeah, the new stadium, aka Monument To Jerry Jones' Ego, sure have.

Watched the team christen it by losing....

The team losing in it has nothing to do with the ability to turn that "Monument to Jerry Jones ego" into a reality.

There again is another area where Jerry excells.

No contradictions at all my friend.

There is a difference between a "big thinker" businessman and a manager - I'm a MANAGER, I understand this. There's another guy around here that makes the BIG decisions, passes them to me, and I get them to happen, that's how it works.

Jerry thinks big, has good ideas, but can't implement them to save his @$$. He got LUCKY and won some championships early in his tenure as an owner, but has MANAGED himself into a corner since, because he doesn't hire a manager and let that person do the job they were hired to. His team hasn't won squat since what, '93? 15 years? Why? It's all the person at the top.

Jerry is poor at "Football" decisions "On the field" and Coaching. He excells at all other aspects, and Implements plenty that has nothing to do with "on the field".

If he allows his football people to do their jobs - get a GM for the team, tell him to find the BEST POSSIBLE coach for the job, then let those two guys do what they do, he should be able to produce a winner.

He can't let go of the reigns though.

This is where Jerry makes his mistake IMO. He wants to pretend to be head coach. And this is where the ridicule and eccentricity comes in. If he were to (Like you say) let football people do their jobs, I'd say you'd have a tough time finding someone who could touch him. That's his fault, plain and simple.

God Bless, Ray

 

[Gard]

My pont with that is to say THAT is where Jerry should stay because he far excels most in that reguard. Besides name me one "Owner/GM" that wins games.

The Rooney family.

The team losing in it has nothing to do with the ability to turn that "Monument to Jerry Jones ego" into a reality.

There again is another area where Jerry excells.

His ego MADE that happen, that's my point. The team may have needed a new stadium (er...but I thought Texas Stadium was just fine), but it didn't need such an edifice, and how much public money is tied up in it? (Serious question, I don't know the answer)

Jerry is poor at "Football" decisions "On the field" and Coaching. He excells at all other aspects, and Implements plenty that has nothing to do with "on the field".

The exact point I was trying to make: He tries to do what he is not qualified to do, because of his EGO. He does a wonderful job taking care of the business end, no doubt, as a money making endeavor, it is highly successful. I'm not arguing that point at all!

This is where Jerry makes his mistake IMO. He wants to pretend to be head coach. And this is where the ridicule and eccentricity comes in. If he were to (Like you say) let football people do their jobs, I'd say you'd have a tough time finding someone who could touch him. That's his fault, plain and simple.

God Bless, Ray

I agree, but he can't do it, and I doubt he ever will, because his ego is so huge he can't let it go. He's Al Davis without the straight jacket.

 

[LilRay]

His ego MADE that happen, that's my point. The team may have needed a new stadium (er...but I thought Texas Stadium was just fine), but it didn't need such an edifice, and how much public money is tied up in it? (Serious question, I don't know the answer)

To answer your question. The City of Arlington (Where the stadium is located) put up 933Mil. Jerry's invested 867Mil to total the 1.8Bil.

Having literally grown up in the Grand Prairie/Arlington area I can say without hesitation that just the simple fact that the new stadium is located there will help the entire D/FW Metroplex's economy. Arlington is approximately halfway between Dallas and Fort Worth. Texas Stadium was located in Irving which is farther east and closer to Dallas. Both NFL and MLB stadiums are across from one another now.

The exact point I was trying to make: He tries to do what he is not qualified to do, because of his EGO. He does a wonderful job taking care of the business end, no doubt, as a money making endeavor, it is highly successful. I'm not arguing that point at all!

You and I both know that a big ego, will win big and lose big. Even in the music industry some of our colleagues have huge egos and are perceived by most to be jackasses. But they've got the brass to roll em, and win/lose big.

I don't fault him for his ego, other than his perceived football abilities. Jerry may well have OCD ala Howard Hughes, and a need to micro manage every detail, who knows?

All gunslingers need swagger, no matter what field of endeavor

BTW I know we're "agreeing" in general and I mean no offense, I'm sure you're aware of this.

God Bless, Ray

 

[fo shizzle]

To answer your question. The City of Arlington (Where the stadium is located) put up 933Mil. Jerry's invested 867Mil to total the 1.8Bil.

Having literally grown up in the Grand Prairie/Arlington area I can say without hesitation that just the simple fact that the new stadium is located there will help the entire D/FW Metroplex's economy. Arlington is approximately halfway between Dallas and Fort Worth. Texas Stadium was located in Irving which is farther east and closer to Dallas. Both NFL and MLB stadiums are across from one another now.

Sorry Ray, that's bad info....... The City of Arlington is all in for $325 million. Tarrant county is in for $30 million. The public funds were capped at that total amount. Jerry came out of pocket foe the rest. The final total is just over $1.15 billion.

There are still groups of people pissed at the public participation (there always are). The fact remains that a local business owner came to a municipality and said, "I want to build my billion dollar facility in your town. We will be employing 400+ on a full time basis and 5000 plus on 40 weekends a year. We will bring events to town that will generate billions of dollars over the next 30 years. I'd like $350 million in assistance, please. What city would turn that down? I'll tell you who....... the City of Dallas.

By the way, how much public money is in the frickin' Superdome? How much FEDERAL money? How much of MY money is in your home stadium, Gard?

 

[LilRay]

Sorry Ray, that's bad info....... The City of Arlington is all in for $325 million. Tarrant county is in for $30 million. The public funds were capped at that total amount. Jerry came out of pocket foe the rest. The final total is just over $1.15 billion.

There are still groups of people pissed at the public participation (there always are). The fact remains that a local business owner came to a municipality and said, "I want to build my billion dollar facility in your town. We will be employing 400+ on a full time basis and 5000 plus on 40 weekends a year. We will bring events to town that will generate billions of dollars over the next 30 years. I'd like $350 million in assistance, please. What city would turn that down? I'll tell you who....... the City of Dallas.

I got my info from wikipedia. I haven't "lived" in Dallas for over 10 years so I'm not privy to local news or more accurate info.

By the way, how much public money is in the frickin' Superdome? How much FEDERAL money? How much of MY money is in your home stadium, Gard?

That ain't got nothing to do with the Saints fo, and that's kinda rude. I think you may be taking Gards banter a little too personally. We all know what happened to the Superdome and why. We don't need to relive that and I damned sure don't want to.

Gard may be a little jealous of the Casa De Vaqueros, si. But I really don't take him that seriously. I like a good verbal sparring match but I dont punch low.

God Bless, Ray

 

[Eric Perry]

By the way, how much public money is in the frickin' Superdome? How much FEDERAL money? How much of MY money is in your home stadium, Gard?

That's not cool, dude.

 

[fo shizzle]

Wait a minute, Boys.......... How is it Gard gets a pass on this? Cause if that's the case, it makes the banter and give and take less fun. Gard's question was a jab at Jerry. My reply is a jab at Tom Benson.

Look I remember 2005 well. My church took in and supported quite a few great people during the aftermath of that storm. But the fact is that the guy I'm engaging is from NOLA and a Saints fan. If he were a Falcons fan, I'd be jabbing at Arthur Blank.

 

[Gard]

My question to Ray about the stadium and the money involved was absolutely NOT a "jab" at anyone. I merely requested information, simple as that. ANY major venue like a football stadium will involve public funds, I was curious just how much of Jerry's own money was involved in that stadium. I actually APPLAUD the fact that he has so much in the stadium.

As for the comment on the Superdome and NOLA in particular, that's political commentary and I won't go there, other than to say that if you don't know what you're talking about, you might want to not talk about it:

"It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than it is to open your mouth and remove all doubt."

-------------------------------------------------------------

On a personal note to you, fo:

jazzbo and Ray seem to "get" it, I'm a smart@$$ that likes to talk smack, and I don't really care much for the Cowboys, but I'm NOT an utter @$$ that thinks everyone that roots for the team is some slope-foreheaded-nosepicking moron.

This is all in FUN.

You seem to miss it somehow, and it really bumms me out, because I really enjoy the banter during the season. Guys that start taking it all to seriously ruin it for the rest of us.

Why don't you and I push a restart button here, and you keep in mind that I'm not ATTACKING anyone, I'm just goofing off, having fun, taking the piss as they say in jolly old England - I'm not SERIOUS. (Well, my dislike of the Dallas Cowboys franchise is a bit serious, but not my dislike of the fans - they can't help it, they were brainwashed into liking them, it's not their fault! )