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Official Joyo Club Part 2: Beyond Thunderclone
- Thread starter SunnBass
- Start date
Also look into the VT Bass which wasn't mentioned before. Joyo doesn't have a clone of that one though.
From what I heard the Dr J Sparrow would be more in the BDDI ball park, not the VT Bass. I may be wrong since I never tried it 
The Sparrow is much more like the BDDI than the VT bass. The Sparrow has a slightly different flavor to the grind it has available and I find it more usable for my tone.
The VT bass was more of an effect to me, much harder to tame than the Sparrow. I use the sparrow after the Eden WTDI as an always on cab sim and DI and it sounds great.
The VT bass was more of an effect to me, much harder to tame than the Sparrow. I use the sparrow after the Eden WTDI as an always on cab sim and DI and it sounds great.
so i discovered that the American and UD together engaged invert phase...only slightly bummed. I still love the combo but i do get that slight volume drop. I can probably get away with it live, but knowing that it's there is going to bother me now lol going to have to find a work-around for this. suggestions maybe?
A signal is either inverted or not...there's no slightly inverted. An inverted signal can only cancel out a non inverted signal if the two signals are blended together and neither of these two pedals has a wet / dry blend mixer. Most Overdrive pedals have input and output buffers. I'm wondering if you are saturating the input buffer of your 2nd pedal with a too high of an output signal from your 1st pedal?
The poster you referenced was 'slightly bummed' not 'slightly inverted'.
Circuits with capacitors, resistors, and inductors in them (passive and active) will shift phase, not just invert. The amount of phase shift will be frequency dependent as well.
Here's an article with an example if you're interested:
Invalid Link Removed
Although incorrect by strict adherence to definition, signals can be slightly inverted if you interpret that to be a shift in phase of some value other than 180 degrees. If you stack enough R/C based components together, the phase shifts will be all over the place unless the circuits are explicitly design to compensate for phase shift while retaining the desired frequency response.
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The "op" wasn't the "OP" of this thread, just a contributor to page 73. 
OP was SunnBass, and he's neither slightly bummed nor slightly inverted.
OP was SunnBass, and he's neither slightly bummed nor slightly inverted.
The "op" wasn't the "OP" of this thread, just a contributor to page 73.
OP was SunnBass, and he's neither slightly bummed nor slightly inverted.
Fixed
'Sokay, I'm still trying to work through the Phase Response link you posted.
Good info, but very challenging for this mathophobe.
Thank you.
Good info, but very challenging for this mathophobe.
Thank you.
The math is arcane but if you're not comfortable pouring through it, just look at the pictures.
The phase shift curves, ref Fig 2, show a phase shift that varies from 90 to 0 degrees across a 1hz corner frequency. That corner frequency can be shifted by the selection of R and C components in the filter to be whatever the designer needs. For a simple (one R and one C) high-pass filter for bass applications, the designer might select something with a 40hz corner frequency. Frequencies significantly above 40Hz will have no phase shift, frequencies well below will have 90 phase shift. In between, the phase shift varies smoothly between the those two extremes. Note that Fig 2 has two vertical scales - the one on the right is for an HPF, the one on the left is for an LPF.
If you add an active high pass filter say above 3K since we turned the high tone knob all the way down (assuming active here means decoupling of the two filters), that filter will add additional similar phase shifts around it's corner frequency.
Notice none of these phase shifts actually leave the signal inverted, aka 180 deg phase shift.
One time that complete inversion is clear is if the same signal is sent to two speakers where the connections for one speaker is switched from the other (and there no interaction between the speaker and the amp that further changes the signal in weird ways).
The assumption I had come to last night was that the inversion was present, but not a full 180°. I was a little confused because neither joyo pedal on its own inverts phase, but the two together seemingly do. I'll look into that link after work.
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This does happen to be my situation. My American is set for a medium gain with the bass knob rolled off around 9:30-10. That feeds the joyo UD and result with this really nice breakup that I like. I had considered that the signal out of the American into the UD was maybe too hot causing this to happen, but when inverting phase introduced more bass into the signal I had doubts.
If the signal seems to grow at some frequencies and shrink in others, then it's not a simple 180 inversion. It's phases shifts across the spectrum that re-enforce in some areas and cancel in others.
With all the electronics, active and passive, in these pedals, there's little chance that the changes are as simple as inversion or no inversion.
One more thought - how are you inverting the signal? Feeding the output of the American into the UD isn't adding the signals together in a way that they would interfere or re-enforce one another - you're not adding the signals at all. Other than being an easy thing to try, swapping the leads on the output of the American is likely just loading down the output of the American to ground because you've connected the signal side of the American output to the input ground on the UD and vice versa (ground on American to input on UD). (If that's really the case, you shouldn't even get any signal at all. Since I don't know the details of the designs of the input and output stages of the two pedals, it's difficult to say what's really going on when they are in series except that phase inversion isn't the cause of the increased low end.)
Mathematically, it looks like this:
Adding the two outputs:
Output = American(signal) + UD(signal) or inverted, Output=American(signal) - UD(signal).
In series, feeding the output of the American into the UD:
Output=UD(American(signal)) or inverted Output=UD(-American(signal))
where the output of the American is: Output=American(input) and similar for the UD.
If you're used to function notation, you'll see that the results are very different mathematically. I could probably go into more depth if I could quickly remember how the two transfer functions actually combine in the second case but it's been a good 30 years since I got my undergraduate in EE).
Not sure what you mean by swapping the leads. But I guess what you say addresses my initial confusion, bc neither pedal on its own inverts phase. I'm inverting the phase with my wounded paw v3.
That helps, from the descriptions on the web of the WPv3, you are sending the same signal to both pedals then recombing them (adding) with the ability to invert the signal you send to either of the boxes.
