Once again, a 410 + 115 thread.

[Analogeezer]

When I went bi-amped I never ran full range. It was either an existing amp pre out into a stereo PA power amp Carvin or QSC and a Rolls or Behringer crossover into two Peavey 1820, then I moved on to just a 1x18 with either a 1x10 or 1x12, once in a while both. Later I used just the Carvin BX1500 to power the whole thing. That amp was set up to bi-amp within itself.

PS I also had a Carvin Cycolps combo amp that got me into looking at a smaller bi-amp system as the Cyclops was a 1x15-2x8 bi-amped combo amp :Ol
I also teamed up a Peavey 4x10 with the 1x18 a couple of times and it was also bi, -amped, lows to the 18, mids and highs through the 4x10s.

Back in my full range days, it was Ampeg B-15, Marantz model 8B tube power amp.into two infinite baffle 1x15 Hard Trucker looking things ,
Standel 2x12 combo, various Sunn products, Coliseum, Concert, Model T with Sunn cabs, whatever I could get my hands on, like most of us

Now it's a Mesa WD-800 and an old Aguilar GS 112

What kind of amp pre out was it? So I take it not a dedicated preamp but the preamp out of an existing amp? That is how I initially ran a large power amp rig, with the preamp out of my Acoustic 220.

The preamp itself could make a lot of difference, I later went to a Peavey ProBass 1000 and that thing sounded like ass , the Acoustic pre out sounded better. I never could get that rig to sound decent but it sounded really good when I booted the Peavey and replaced it with the Ampeg SVP-Pro, like night and day really.

Oh yeah the other thing with the Peavey Pre setup was I was using the built in crossover. That sucked, it was only 12 dB per octave and had only a balance control.

When I switched to the Ampeg I started using an Ashly PA crossover, 18 dB per octave. The Ashly is very nice as it has a control that increases the overlap at the crossover point, so if it sounds like you have a hole in your sound between the lows and the highs, you can change that.

I suspect the Rolls and Behringer crossovers were weak links in your chain as well.

I was really interested in the Cyclops for a while, I wanted to get a beefy sounding, high power combo for use at practice and small gigs. I had just (well over 2 years) purchased a buttload of Carvin cabs, mainly because they were light but I think they still sound great.

I got the Carvins over the Eden single 18" and 2 x 10" I was looking at when I found out how damn heavy they were.

For practice and small gigs the Cylcops seemed like the ticket, then I saw how much it weighed (95 pounds I believe), so about what the large Eden cab weighed.

THEN I bought an Ampeg B2-R and a SVT-806HE, intending on using those at practice and for small gigs, but I bought the Ampeg based on the heart and the sound.....it weighs 85 pounds so that was hardly better LOL.

In the end I settled for my small and lightish rig being the B2-R (about 18 pounds in a two space rack) and a single Carvin 2 x 10"; that rig actually works rather well and I just stuck with that for the smaller stuff.

Analogeezer

 

[scottfeldstein]

For me, the issue has never been whether or not two mixed cabs will sound good together. I assume most will. My question is, do they have a similar power handling capability. If they're too different you're going to either blow speaker A or unnecessarily limit the output of speaker B. If, however, they are each designed to handle a similar wattage I guess I wouldn't worry too much.

 

[Analogeezer]

For me, the issue has never been whether or not two mixed cabs will sound good together. I assume most will. My question is, do they have a similar power handling capability. If they're too different you're going to either blow speaker A or unnecessarily limit the output of speaker B. If, however, they are each designed to handle a similar wattage I guess I wouldn't worry too much.

It's a bit more complicated that that, "in theory" if both cabinets are the same rated impedance they should have similar outputs but it's not that simple.

1. With all drivers, the impedance changes as the frequency changes, that is why speakers are rated at "nominal impedance. Even within the same brand of driver, the impedance (and therefore the output level) of the drivers might vary at a given frequency between the 10" and the 15" drivers from the same brand.

Different brands of drivers then all bets are off.

2. Efficiency - a speaker cabinet that is 3 dB less efficient will require TWICE as much power to get the same SPL as one that is more efficient.

Most companies rate their efficiencies at 1 watt/1 meter but often at a specific frequency as well which is not a very useful spec unless say you only play one note all the time and that note is 1,000 Hz (the typical quoted frequency for efficiency).

The main thing that kills speaker drivers is too little power, the amp output distorts, which then heats up the voice coil and it fails.

Mechanically a speaker can fail from too much power but that's rare unless you are trying to say put 1,000 real watts into a 1 x 10" or maybe a 2 x 10".

If you are driving two speakers with the same impedance (again the caveat being the impedance is "nominal, your two 8 ohm speakers might actually be different when driving them) the amp does not care really (provided the actual operating impedance is not drastically different), it will feed the same output into both cabinets; what happens after that depends on the actual efficiency (across the spectrum) of the cabinet.

With the example the OP cited the real difference is the 4 x 10" is likely to be more efficient (more cone area) than the 15" will be so you might wind up hearing that cabinet more than the bottom cabinet.

But to further complicate things the bottom cabinet is going to couple with the floor more so you will get more apparent bass from that one.

With modernish (as in built the past 25 years) speaker cabinets it would be extremely rare and unlikely to blow one and the other one be just fine unless it was some weird combination of say an 8 x 10" and a single 12" on top getting both fed a lot of power.

Analogeezer

 

[scottfeldstein]

The main thing that kills speaker drivers is too little power

This doesn't sound right to me. I wonder what others think.

 

[agedhorse]

The main thing that kills speaker drivers is too little power, the amp output distorts, which then heats up the voice coil and it fails.

This is absolutely incorrect, the voice coil heats up from the power delivered by the amplifier over time, and when there's too much power there's too much heat.

If an amp rated at say 500 watts can sustain very hard clipping without shutdown (most can not for very long), it may be capable of somewhere around 1.5x the rated undistorted power, but most amps these days monitor such conditions in a variety of ways (duty cycle management, saturation detection, etc.) making this less likely

The thermal energy delivered to the speaker is the area under the power curve integrated over time, minus the acoustic energy (typically about 1-3%) and the dissipated energy (radiated and conducted). This is the retained energy that is responsible for the temperature rise of the VC.

Mechanically a speaker can fail from too much power but that's rare unless you are trying to say put 1,000 real watts into a 1 x 10" or maybe a 2 x 10".

This too is incorrect, in fact about 90% of all bass speaker failures I see are from mechanical damage from too much power (beyond what the speaker is mechanically capable of). In a typical bass speaker, I typically see a mechanical power handling somewhere around 50% of a speaker's thermal rating. The mechanical power handling typically falls pretty fast below a speaker's F3-F6 point in a ported box.

With modernish (as in built the past 25 years) speaker cabinets it would be extremely rare and unlikely to blow one and the other one be just fine unless it was some weird combination of say an 8 x 10" and a single 12" on top getting both fed a lot of power.

I don't think this is as true as you think, for example a quality 115 on the bottom and an average 112 or 110 on the top (both 8 ohms) would make it likely. For example, a Subway 115 on the bottom (400 watts RMS mechanical power handling) with an average 112 with a mechanical power handling of 150-200 watts RMS (pretty typical), powering this with an amp in the 800-1000 watt RMS/4 ohm range (also very common) would result in the 112 being significantly overpowered mechanically, and thus vulnerable.

This doesn't sound right to me. I wonder what others think.

You are correct.

 

[cassanova]

I had the opportunity to run through an SWR Working pro 410 and 115 tonight. The 410 is 500 watts, the 115 is 200. The 4x10 overpowered the 115 a bit, but after disconnecting the 115 the sound did thin, albeit only slightly. Going to pair an Ampeg 115CL with my PN210 next week to see if the results are a bit more balanced.

 

[J-phatt]

I totally get a Bi-Amping setup (did it myself) - but if you take a common 115 bass guitar cabinet and a common 410 bass guitar cabinet of the same quality ... you'll have two full range cabinets, one very capable of moving lots of air and doing lows and one which is a bit weaker in that department because it lacks surface area. The weaker one will do the heavy lifting while the stronger one will bear the lighter weight of doing reduced lows.

A setup like that would be better matched with a 1x10 on top of the 1x15.

Replace the fullrange 115 with a capable PA subwoofer and we're talking.

What is a good PA sub for bass?