Original bands playing for free: a chronic problem

[beggar98]

I would question how the guys in cover bands who are getting paid would feel about getting undercut by weekend warriors who were willing to do it "just for the love of the music". I'm not entirely sure covers vs. originals has anything to do with it as much as artists devaluing the work that goes into having a decent band.

 

[fingerbun]

I would question how the guys in cover bands who are getting paid would feel about getting undercut by weekend warriors who were willing to do it "just for the love of the music". I'm not entirely sure covers vs. originals has anything to do with it as much as artists devaluing the work that goes into having a decent band.

I hope this doesn't sound harsh but the weekend warriors are only giving it away because they can't get paid for it.

The secret to getting paid is to understand the "supply vs demand" equation and find ways to tilt it in your favour. Find things that set you apart.

The fundamental mistake people make in these posts us they want to shame promoters and venues into ignoring supply and demand instead of improving demand for their product.

The difference between covers and originals is the way you climb the ladder. It's easier to get paid work with covers but harder to get to the top. But I agree with you it's a blurred distinction.

Edit ; just to be clear, undercutting goes on in the covers market as well.

 

[jimmyjames]

find a bar with no cover and play there...

there is this place here in the city called Otto's Shrunken head.. its basically 2 rooms, the bar and then the performance room next to it..

that place has no cover charge and no minimum attendance required, we used to just play there when we wanted to try out new songs, invited nobody and waited to see if anybody walked in from the bar to listen (the music was more than audible into the next room)... when somebody came in, we knew we had a good song going..

after a while, we just decided to play there more frequently.. they gave us a handfull of drink tickets and even gave us a tip bucket to put out...


moral of the story is... play someplace where there is no cover charge, that way, the guests don't feel cheated, having to pay to get in AND having to tip the band, AND having to pay for drinks and food..

 

[butchblack]

The other thing you could do in the long run is work to get the laws changed, basically making "open" showcases illegal. I alway thought that a law requiring a club to pay at least minimum wage, including set up and take down time per band member would be a good idea. Someone with better legal knowledge then I could chime in as to whether tis could be legally done. The down side is that some of the venues would probably stop having live music.

 

[jimmyjames]

The other thing you could do in the long run is work to get the laws changed, basically making "open" showcases illegal. I alway thought that a law requiring a club to pay at least minimum wage, including set up and take down time per band member would be a good idea. Someone with better legal knowledge then I could chime in as to whether tis could be legally done. The down side is that some of the venues would probably stop having live music.

the otherside of that coin is that bands would have to get paid by form of check as to get taxed somehow.. i know here in NY when my DJ friend has a gig, he always fills out some sort of form so his DJ check gets taxed... would be awesome if that was the case for rock bands too..

guess it would always have to depend on the venue. his gigs are at huge clubs.. not at bars lol

 

[LiamPodmore]

Over here in the UK original bands tend to get alot of paid work, mainly because the bands grew as cover and original bands, and then created a new band off the success of that one for just originals, and left the other band to just covers.

Liam

 

[jive1]

I would question how the guys in cover bands who are getting paid would feel about getting undercut by weekend warriors who were willing to do it "just for the love of the music". I'm not entirely sure covers vs. originals has anything to do with it as much as artists devaluing the work that goes into having a decent band.

- Most guys who just do it for the love of music aren't playing Katy Perry and Taylor Swift.
- Most weekend warrior bands don't have a songlist of over 150 tunes to draw from.
- Most guys who are giving it away will sooner or later get tired of lugging and maintaining thousands of dollars and hundreds of pounds of sound and lights.
- Most bands playing for free will have a hard time finding a capable sub if someone in the band can't make it.

 

[fingerbun]

The other thing you could do in the long run is work to get the laws changed, basically making "open" showcases illegal. I alway thought that a law requiring a club to pay at least minimum wage, including set up and take down time per band member would be a good idea. Someone with better legal knowledge then I could chime in as to whether tis could be legally done. The down side is that some of the venues would probably stop having live music.

I hope this post comes across as constructive and not a flame.

You are proposing a really bad idea.

First, how many of you got paid union rates or minimum wage for your first gig? How would you have learned enough to earn money from music if you weren't able to do freebies to get your skills up.

Second, I have a room where I play with two bands, a four piece and a twenty piece. By your rule the twenty piece would have to charge five times as much as the four piece. Not viable. That can only end in the twenty piece being put out of business, and I like playing in that band. Besides, that twenty piece plays music for a lot of oldies who want to relive the music of their youth (Miller, Dorsey, Ellington, etc). You are depriving them of that chance.

Third, it won't stop at a four piece taking work off a twenty piece. A three piece is cheaper again, then a two piece cheaper still. So all of a sudden, the pressure is on to come up with the smallest lineup that can do a band vibe, and along with drums, guess what instrument is going to be sequenced rather than played live in that circumstance. I'd be brushing up on keyboards REAL quick if the industry ever went the way you suggest.

So if you really want to put a majority of the bass players in this world out of work, and destroy the ability to play music with a large lineup, by all means find a lawyer who can make your dream - or nightmare - a reality. Just keep it in the good ol' USA, so that when it stifles your new talent and destroys your music industry we can export more product to you and have many more rich musicians here.

But I'd be interested how you defend the morality of this idea. Why should you destroy my fun and the fun of those who listen to my twenty piece just so you can get gas money? Ditto why should you destroy the opportunities for new musicians to start out? You are being at least as bad as those who you feel undercut you. Worse in my view...firstly because you are deliberately sabotaging the art of others so you can have gas money, and secondly if you EVER did a free gig you are proposing rules you were not prepared to live by, which is hypocrisy.

Strong words, and I don't want to upset anyone, but I have to admit your suggestion upsets me. (Could you tell?)

 

[Rob Martinez]

HUH??? WHAT??? This is wrong. College bars last decades... If the bar is full of regulars, then they have a case for not paying them. But if a band is bringing in patrons, they should be paid. Even if no one shows up they should be paid.

Why are you be belittling the OP? I smell a troll? Become like U2? Huh? I think the bar can afford $50 to pay a band. If they can't maybe THEY should look at their business model.

I disagree that this post belittled the OP. If is just factual. And I am on the band's side! Still, if the band did not play, would people still come to the bar? The answer is yes. Why? Because there are other bands willing to do it for free. Right or wrong, good or bad, that's how it works. Original bands have to pay dues, and MAYBE they will go to the next level IF they are good. You don't get to the next level JUST because you are an original band. How long have they been playing in this situation? The place was filled with 30 patrons split between two bands that each played an hour set. That's 15 people for his band. For one hour. How much SHOULD they get paid for that?

I play in a cover band and we expect to get paid. If I were in an original band, I would expect to play for free. Period.

Until I have a hit song. Then it's a new game.

 

[Floyd Eye]

No bands, original or covers should ever be working for free. It's one thing to do your buddies party, but when you start playing for free in clubs every working band in town is going to want to kick your ***. I know I would.


At least that's how it works in my town.


FWIW, my band pretty much plays out only on the weekends ( occasionally during the week if the money's right), as we all have regular jobs and we have a very large set list to draw upon. We never, EVER play free.

 

[NickyBass]

the otherside of that coin is that bands would have to get paid by form of check as to get taxed somehow.. i know here in NY when my DJ friend has a gig, he always fills out some sort of form so his DJ check gets taxed... would be awesome if that was the case for rock bands too..

guess it would always have to depend on the venue. his gigs are at huge clubs.. not at bars lol

Yeah, it's one thing if the bar owner is paying the band $50 cash 'under the table'--but when bars are paying $2500 a night, every night, for a band, they are going to want the write off. So, they need to have the band fill out a form W9 and sent them a 1099 at the end of the year. Some places do it, some don't.

If you look at the accounting costs involved for a bar that has 3-5 original bands every night, doing it on the up and up is a major headache. Just getting the proper paperwork would be a hassle. I believe that they wouldn't have to issue a 1099 if the band made less than $650 in the calendar year, but they would still have to account for it to see which bands would get one and which wouldn't.

 

[butchblack]

I hope this post comes across as constructive and not a flame.

You are proposing a really bad idea.

First, how many of you got paid union rates or minimum wage for your first gig? How would you have learned enough to earn money from music if you weren't able to do freebies to get your skills up.

Second, I have a room where I play with two bands, a four piece and a twenty piece. By your rule the twenty piece would have to charge five times as much as the four piece. Not viable. That can only end in the twenty piece being put out of business, and I like playing in that band. Besides, that twenty piece plays music for a lot of oldies who want to relive the music of their youth (Miller, Dorsey, Ellington, etc). You are depriving them of that chance.

Third, it won't stop at a four piece taking work off a twenty piece. A three piece is cheaper again, then a two piece cheaper still. So all of a sudden, the pressure is on to come up with the smallest lineup that can do a band vibe, and along with drums, guess what instrument is going to be sequenced rather than played live in that circumstance. I'd be brushing up on keyboards REAL quick if the industry ever went the way you suggest.

So if you really want to put a majority of the bass players in this world out of work, and destroy the ability to play music with a large lineup, by all means find a lawyer who can make your dream - or nightmare - a reality. Just keep it in the good ol' USA, so that when it stifles your new talent and destroys your music industry we can export more product to you and have many more rich musicians here.

But I'd be interested how you defend the morality of this idea. Why should you destroy my fun and the fun of those who listen to my twenty piece just so you can get gas money? Ditto why should you destroy the opportunities for new musicians to start out? You are being at least as bad as those who you feel undercut you. Worse in my view...firstly because you are deliberately sabotaging the art of others so you can have gas money, and secondly if you EVER did a free gig you are proposing rules you were not prepared to live by, which is hypocrisy.

Strong words, and I don't want to upset anyone, but I have to admit your suggestion upsets me. (Could you tell?)

As in many cases of morality, solving one problem can create another. Here in the Boston Ma area more then half of the clubs doing live music are doing some kind of showcase format where the bands get little to nothing or worse. The clubs make $ from drinks and a cover, if any. So in my not so humble opinion they are exploiting the bands that play. My suggestion would at least put gas $ in their pockets. Minimum wage is $8.00 hr here in Mass, so a 5 piece band would get $40 for an hour set. Your 20 piece band is an exception, most club bands are 6 piece or less.

As far as hypocrisy goes, there are many things in life I regret doing even though they seemed like a good idea at the time. Showcasing is one of them. I will still donate my time and talents for a legitimate benefit or charity and my original post was never intended to eliminate that.

The cost of all this is that some venues would stop booking live music, so the question is would the paying a band gas $ be worth the potential loss of venues?

Remember that the OP's original question was should he have to drive 100 miles to play potentially for nothing. My suggestion would at least partially offset that.

 

[Rob Martinez]

No bands, original or covers should ever be working for free. It's one thing to do your buddies party, but when you start playing for free in clubs every working band in town is going to want to kick your ***. I know I would.


At least that's how it works in my town.


FWIW, my band pretty much plays out only on the weekends ( occasionally during the week if the money's right), as we all have regular jobs and we have a very large set list to draw upon. We never, EVER play free.

Cover band, I assume.

In theory, I agree. Never play for free. But if your local scene is such that original bands play for free, then taking that stand will mean you just don't gig.

 

[Floyd Eye]

Cover band, I assume.

In theory, I agree. Never play for free. But if your local scene is such that original bands play for free, then taking that stand will mean you just don't gig.

Primarily covers, with a few originals slipped in at the end of each set usually.

NO band should play in a bar or club for free.


On the other hand, we will gladly play for free if we can put our guy at the door and charge a cover.

 

[The Owl]

unfortunately, too many club owners want something for nothing, and too many bands are complicit in devaluing their own work, and creating those expectations.

Sad but true.

 

[jimmyjames]

I don't know how it is else where, would be interested to know but here in NY it's:

The performer gets paid depending on how many people they bring, but only after a certain number.

Example: $10 at the door. Bar keeps the first 10 heads and then there is a split for every head after that. So if we bring less than 10 people we don't get paid, so if we being 20 people we are looking at around $50+ plus what ever drinks or discounts they give us.

So when we rely on that kind of gig, we always book them at big venues and spread the dates out as to be able to fill up the guest list.

 

[fingerbun]

As in many cases of morality, solving one problem can create another. Here in the Boston Ma area more then half of the clubs doing live music are doing some kind of showcase format where the bands get little to nothing or worse. The clubs make $ from drinks and a cover, if any. So in my not so humble opinion they are exploiting the bands that play. My suggestion would at least put gas $ in their pockets. Minimum wage is $8.00 hr here in Mass, so a 5 piece band would get $40 for an hour set. Your 20 piece band is an exception, most club bands are 6 piece or less.

As far as hypocrisy goes, there are many things in life I regret doing even though they seemed like a good idea at the time. Showcasing is one of them. I will still donate my time and talents for a legitimate benefit or charity and my original post was never intended to eliminate that.

The cost of all this is that some venues would stop booking live music, so the question is would the paying a band gas $ be worth the potential loss of venues?

Remember that the OP's original question was should he have to drive 100 miles to play potentially for nothing. My suggestion would at least partially offset that.

Hi, my twenty piece band is an exception but in your scenario a 6 piece band is twice the price of a 3 piece. A duo with backing tracks is cheaper again. The smaller the band the more likely they won't have a bass player.

My answer to the original poster is, figure out how to make your product commercially viable. If you want to stop playing, make a decision to drop out. Don't introduce unworkable rules that will damage those of us who are happy to do stuff for ourselves.

 

[fingerbun]

No bands, original or covers should ever be working for free. It's one thing to do your buddies party, but when you start playing for free in clubs every working band in town is going to want to kick your ***. I know I would.

At least that's how it works in my town.

FWIW, my band pretty much plays out only on the weekends ( occasionally during the week if the money's right), as we all have regular jobs and we have a very large set list to draw upon. We never, EVER play free.

I generally don't play for free either. The twenty piece I mentioned earlier gets paid but the money is used to cover costs, not distributed.

The few times I have played for free in bars it's been for friends whose product was not commercially viable. In such circumstances the bar is doing a favour letting them play.

Nonetheless, not telling you where I live, just to cover my a**.

 

[jive1]

Third, it won't stop at a four piece taking work off a twenty piece. A three piece is cheaper again, then a two piece cheaper still. So all of a sudden, the pressure is on to come up with the smallest lineup that can do a band vibe, and along with drums, guess what instrument is going to be sequenced rather than played live in that circumstance. I'd be brushing up on keyboards REAL quick if the industry ever went the way you suggest.

It's already happening now. "Fools on Stools" are a popular thing around here, especially on the weekday gigs. When places are only paying $100-200 for a gig like that, it's the only way someone can make any decent coin.

And keyboards can be sequenced too. The thing you have to learn how to do is sing. I only wish I got started earlier, and had more natural ability.

 

[Jason P Bass]

Then they can shove it.

"Shove it" means "continue to book undiscovered start-up original bands for free forever"? Cause that's what they're going to do.

Keeping up with the lingo is so difficult these days.

This is a 5 page thread for 1 simple problem - people are trying to get paid for work that is indistinguishable from work that other people will do for free.

You can get mad at the competition, but they'll still work for free.
You can get mad at the employers, but they'll still hire free work.
You could distinguish yourself from the free labor but that would require self analysis, work, and change.

So we're obviously going to blame the competition and the employers. This 5 page thread will probably hit 20 pages before it dies, and then in a couple of months, someone else will post the exact same thing and everyone can respond the exact same way all over again.

This isn't band management, it's a pity party