Original bands playing for free: a chronic problem

[bucephylus]

Sounds like the club owners have your circle of "original" bands right where they want you.

Don't see what on earth this has to do with "original vs cover"diatribe. These are performing artists with "customers" taking advantage of ignorance with business. Pure and simple.

Sure, its cool to get up in front of friends and play some tunes you may have written and then be popular with "the chicks."

But, you will find that playing for free for the benefit of the club owners gets old after a while. Hauling and maintaining gear all by itself is work. Rounding up your friends eventually turns into calling in favors.

As long as you've got some new up and comers willing to pull that sled, you will play right into the club owners' hands. Have fun.

And again, this has zero to do with "original vs cover;" which, BTW & IMO, is such a misconception of the nature of pop music, that I literally can't even have the conversation. YMMV & GL2A

 

[hrodbert696]

I guarantee that if the next time you play you draw 150-175 people to a bar that is happy with a crowd of 30-40, you could negotiate a pretty nice payday for your next gig.

This is true. The OP's problem is that his band DOESN'T draw 150 people, it draws 20 (assuming that the crowd of 40 was half his band's people and half the other band's).

 

[Joe Nerve]

Open your own restaurant/bar/club and start paying original bands.

or, more realistically and less smugly ... find a place that would be willing to do shows, and host your own. if the bands are REALLY the ones that are packing the places, it shouldn't be hard to find other willing venues to host your music. we used to do that with the nerve and walk away with the same that a cover band would make. we split the door with the places, held all ages shows, and charged between $8 & $12 admission if I remember correctly. We booked other bands and payed them according to the people they brought (like $1 a head) "if" the hung around till the end of the show when we counted up the money. Some did, most didn't. Anyhow, if you start building a scene you'll start taking business from these other places. If not, then it's not the bands that are generating the money for those businesses, it's those businesses.

I'm going to guess the places you're currently playing are free admission. If not, then the owners really are being creeps IMO, but the alternative (charging admission) often drives away more people than you'd imagine. If you've got venues to play that are consistently packed, then ya might want to throw on some rose colored glasses and just be grateful for it. Or suggesting a small admission that will go towards the bands. Doing originals is an investment in oneself. It's like bartering for promotion of you music and having fun while doing it as opposed to paying for an ad in a magazine. It's all a matter of prospective. If you're into the gigs for the money, you can play covers. I always have a cover band going to supplement and support my original habit.

 

[Conallo]

The ongoing conundrum: bars want live music but won't pay for it.

I live in a small town with 2 colleges, so despite being a small town, it's got a vibrant night-life and a strong music scene. There are several decent venues in town and they pretty much only book original bands (people actually come out to hear original music here- amazing and wonderful). No work for cover bands here, but as an original band, you could book yourself every night of the week if you wanted...all for free.

Last Saturday after a gig at a local bar I looked around and noted that our band and the other band who played had brought in just about 99% of the patrons that evening (probably 30-40 people- a small place so it was pretty full)- all of course eating and drinking and spending money... and yet the bands get 2 free drinks and 1/2 price food, plus tips if we put out a jar.

After gas and making posters for the show and the 1/2 price dinners we ate (not even calculating personal effort and investment), I figure the gig cost us about $40. Clearly, this is not a formula for success.

The problem is that there are so many bands here that if you don't play for free, you don't play. I have tried to think of solutions to this problem:

(1) perhaps insisting to bars that we don't want free drinks. 2 free drinks per band member equal ~$5 * 4, so they could at least pay us $25... not much, but with gas topping $4 per gallon, it's something.

(2) my guitarist suggested trying to organize the local bands and refuse to play for free- anyone have experience with this?

... any suggestions on how to get the venues to compensate fairly? I know the story that original music doesn't pay unless you sell cds and merch and get the big time gigs... but i am increasingly jaded feeling that we're working to enrich bar owners while taking on all the costs.

or maybe I should learn to play for the Love of Music, or "Exposure"... ugh.

Personally I like your guitarists idea. Obviously the bar owners have gotten together and decided not to pay bands, so turn the tables.

Damn glad I live in a city, not a problem here.

 

[fingerbun]

Personally I like your guitarists idea. Obviously the bar owners have gotten together and decided not to pay bands, so turn the tables.

OK, I know this is going to not be what some people want to hear but it's the truth.

Venue owners are NOT all bloodsucking vampires.

Some venue owners I know actually try to support live music because they believe in it, even though it is more hassle or less lucrative than some other alternatives.

If you have a crowd of 40, and without the band they would have 30-35, then you have cost them space, electricity, insurance and so on, and added very little profit. They might be losing money on you.

 

[Conallo]

OK, I know this is going to not be what some people want to hear but it's the truth.

Venue owners are NOT all bloodsucking vampires.

Some venue owners I know actually try to support live music because they believe in it, even though it is more hassle or less lucrative than some other alternatives.

If you have a crowd of 40, and without the band they would have 30-35, then you have cost them space, electricity, insurance and so on, and added very little profit. They might be losing money on you.

I don't disagree with you. I was just commenting on the original post. A town with two colleges, and a lively bar scene, that won't pay their entertainment.

In Chicago clubs/bars pay out based on take of the door, minus a lil to help pay the sound guy....which is always a crap shoot, some are better then others. Which for me is the most equatable way to do it. For a brand new band, with no fans yet, won't have any take. But as you build a fan base you get more. Also it is equitable to the owners....if band brings in no one they play for free.

 

[aborgman]

I think the bar can afford $50 to pay a band.

Sure they can.

But why WOULD they? If you can get the same quality for free, that is $50 in profit... and that is the purpose of the bar - making a profit.

 

[beggar98]

This is true. The OP's problem is that his band DOESN'T draw 150 people, it draws 20 (assuming that the crowd of 40 was half his band's people and half the other band's).

Of course. I was just suggesting that if he wants to get paid he needs to show the value to the bar owners.

Not sure if anyone else here is a big baseball geek like I am, but in the advanced stats community there is a stat called VORP- Value Over Replacement Player. Basically it tries to calculate how much better a player is than the average replacement player.

Well, to the OP, what is your VORB- Value Over Replacement Band?

 

[Big Brother]

I'm sorry to be the one to share the bad news...you are being compensated fairly. The bar owners are offering you a job which your competition in the marketplace readily accepts and comes back for more. The product you are offering is not worth more to them than that, I'm afraid.

...

I mean no disrespect but I'm a business guy...if my product is no longer in demand and I wish to be in business for more than a hobby, I make a new product. I guess if it were me, I'd try to change my outlook...you get to hang with your friends and be a rockstar for the evening and you get food & drinks for the pleasure. That sounds like a pretty cool hobby. You're right, however, it doesn't sound like much of a business model.

Good luck...I hope you get comfortable with it...you don't want to be jaded about playing music, IMO

Pretty much.

It isn't that bands ruin things by playing for free, it's that there are far more bands than crowds willing to listen...

You kind of create your own market in this business and you do that by creating something that compels people to want to see you. If you can't get paid work, it means you have to do something to better compel people's interest in you.

 

[RBrownBass]

Actually I think he responded to one of the wisest posts in the thread. The core message

...was quite reasonable. The tone wasn't.

 

[RBrownBass]

Sure they can.

But why WOULD they? If you can get the same quality for free

^This^

You have to have something that the guys who are willing to play for free don't have.

 

[TheVoiceless]

Sure they can.

But why WOULD they? If you can get the same quality for free, that is $50 in profit... and that is the purpose of the bar - making a profit.

Yeah but that's stupid. Non of the successful venues that I am aware of lasted because they ripped bands off. So the $50 well spent will equal thousands later on.

You really think this $50 is keeping the bar a float. Again, then they are bad business men.

So in your mind $50 is keeping the bar a float?

 

[TheVoiceless]

It's very sad that it is like this. I'm from NJ where the local original scene is really dying out. Covers have long taken over (even they are hurting). What I never could understand was why original bands were never paid or paid very poorly. Whenever we would play with a few bands on the bill the places would be packed. The club would do extremely well yet the bands would make like $100. Then, you have coverbands who most of the time don't really draw well but get a flat rate around $1000. It's really a shame that original bands are taken advantage of. All the hard work and determination is used against them because they just want to play.

I can agree with most of this, being I play in this market. Cover bands are feeling the pain. The average guarantee is somewhere between $300- $500. Unless your are established or packing the house this is the money to expect.

And the original scene has always been tough. But if you can draw you can make that $1000 with the right promoter. I know bands in are area that can do this. But they worked to get to this point.

 

[aborgman]

Yeah but that's stupid. Non of the successful venues that I am aware of lasted because they ripped bands off. So the $50 well spent will equal thousands later on.

Nobody got "ripped off".

If the bar says you're getting paid, then doesn't pay you - you got ripped off.

If the bar says you're not getting paid, then doesn't pay you - they're just upholding their end of an agreement.

None of the successful venues I've been around lasted because they ripped off bands. Lot of them lasted a long time and didn't pay bands though.

You really think this $50 is keeping the bar a float.

No... but I think if the bar can sell 100 Patron shots for $5 per each night, or they can sell 100 El Toro shots for $5 per each night - they're picking the El Toro.

The $50 isn't keeping the bar afloat - it's just $50 less cost, with no loss in benefit.

So in your mind $50 is keeping the bar a float?

No -

In my mind if I can attract 100 customers for $50, or 100 customer for $0 - I'm picking the $0 option.

That is how smart businessmen keep businesses afloat - by not spending money on things that don't increase the bottom line.

 

[TheVoiceless]

To clarify my position,

In my mind the club and bands have to separate jobs. The band, to play and write (if original ) music people want to hear. Focusing their energy and cash flow on improving their product. The club, to provide a venue for music fans to enjoy music they like in a good atmosphere.

Now if both are doing their jobs, the club will book and pay bands that people want to hear. And bands will focus on being a good band.

I don't care if your band chooses to play for free. But in my opinion its a band business practice to "hire" bad bands that you don't have to pay. The successful clubs I know of spend money on advertisement and share a potion of ticket sales or the entire door. Providing an opportunity for bands to make some money.

Both are equally responsible for promotion. Its in everyone's best interest.

I am in talks with a few people about starting a concert/promotion company. And one of my main things will be to pay my bands. Even if its a small guarantee, like $25 for the opener, $50 for middle bands, and $100 for the headliner. Now if I did my job and put a show together people want to see, and have done my leg work promoting my shows and the bands that play them I can pay my bands and make a nice profit. And if your a new band I will let you play for free if I like your music and you can't draw. But if a band brings 40 people to my show, they are leaving with something in their wallet even if it was a free show original agreement.

 

[beggar98]

Yeah but that's stupid. Non of the successful venues that I am aware of lasted because they ripped bands off. So the $50 well spent will equal thousands later on.

You really think this $50 is keeping the bar a float. Again, then they are bad business men.

So in your mind $50 is keeping the bar a float?

If the $50 is no big deal, why are you going to get upset over it? The fact is you're treating your band like a hobby, which is fine. If you love playing and writing music you should be happy you have the opportunity to do both. If you think you deserve to be paid you need to prove it. What is the value of your band's presence in a bar?

 

[Kabal]

...Now if both are doing their jobs, the club will book and pay bands that people want to hear. And bands will focus on being a good band.

...The successful clubs I know of spend money on advertisement and share a potion of ticket sales or the entire door. Providing an opportunity for bands to make some money...

Both are equally responsible for promotion. Its in everyone's best interest.

I concur

Unfortunately with small towns, small bars don't typically charge at the door and don't really advertise so to customers it's a strange concept to pay at the door out of the blue one day.

But if the place is popular enough I believe people will pay, even if it is a small town. People like being the one who says "...Aww man you shoulda been there!..."

And to the OP......pick your gigs. How often are you playing at these bars? Maybe you need to cut back on playing out and get back to writing and getting tighter as a band.

Don't put the wagon before the mule, separation makes the heart grow fonder...or something like that

And actually rereading your post I was curious are you in college in this town?

The fact that you live in a college town and have a place for your music is nothing to sneeze at either. You know what I would do for a chance to share my music to a crowd of expectant or willing first time listeners?.......I'd probably play for free

And also I'd advise against trying to unionize the bands or the individual musicians in general because that'd just be another thing put on you that takes away from your time to make music.

Unions are an all or nothing option and a last ditch effort so unless you have a serious business/promoting streak in you it could make you very bitter in the end no matter how it turns out. But if it turns out the bars keep running just fine without live music and you have nowhere else to play, then you just ruined your town for other all original musicians.

So unless your back's against the wall and you literally cannot survive without getting paid from music please avoid unionizing

 

[travep]

Originally posted by beggar98
Not sure if anyone else here is a big baseball geek like I am, but in the advanced stats community there is a stat called VORP- Value Over Replacement Player. Basically it tries to calculate how much better a player is than the average replacement player.

Well, to the OP, what is your VORB- Value Over Replacement Band?

This is *so* spot on. This really the only issue here. You have to add more value to the business owner and he'll hire you all day until another who makes him more money comes along. This isn't personal and isn't wrong...he's taking all the risk of entering into leases and paying insurance and stocking liquor and hiring employees in hopes that he can make a little extra to put his kids though college.

beggar98 hits the nail on the head with his analogy...

 

[mambo4]

Hey Mambo4, I clicked on your link and liked what I saw. Went to download the EP and it's free provided I join the mailing list...what a bargain!

Want to comment on the business model behind that? Probably relevant to the thread. I assume you view it as advertising or something?

Thanks, glad you liked it!

Yes, the Eps are basically promotional costs. Anyone who signs up gets free music, we get 1 more person on our mailing list.
We do sell them at gigs (pay what you like,) and over 2 years or so the the cost of pressing has been recouped (we tracked and mixed DIY).
That said, T-shirts are generally a better ROI. all proceeds go into the band fund for our LP.

We are working on a full length, and looking at it as superior promotional tool ( as well as something we can sell.)
If the purpose of the EPs is to expand the mailing list of individuals, the purpose of this LP is to create positive exposure to the pitchfork.coms, college/public radio, and larger/more regional venues.
We are also shopping rough tracks to several publicity companies specializing in independant band promotion.

The tracking is done, we plan to use Kickstarter.com to generate [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] for the mixing, mastering (decided was best to hire pros for that) and pressing.
Doing the math, we'll break even if each member can convince 10 - 20 friends and family to pitch in.
...we will definitely be soliciting that email list when our pitch is ready.

all of this has taken countless hours and money...our secret weapons are day jobs and supportive spouses.

 

[TheVoiceless]

If the $50 is no big deal, why are you going to get upset over it? The fact is you're treating your band like a hobby, which is fine. If you love playing and writing music you should be happy you have the opportunity to do both. If you think you deserve to be paid you need to prove it. What is the value of your band's presence in a bar?

My gripe comes from years of selling tickets, getting ripped off by promoters, and knowing it from both sides of the coin.

I have a different band situation, so none of this applies to what I do. So I really shouldn't be that upset. But I also have my own personal feelings on how things should work ( which I explained in another post ).

If the OP went in knowing he was not getting paid, then no issue. If the band expected to get paid and did not, then bad club owner. If the OP wants to start getting paid, I encourage them and hope they take the valuable knowledge provided on TB, and come up with ways to make them more marketable and put themselves in position to command a guarantee.