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PA system Help - ska/reggae/funk band
- Thread starter Carrot22
- Start date
Alright, believe what you want. I'll be more practical. You pointed me to post #35, so here we go:
Ok, the S115V has a continuous rating of 250W, can we agree on that? So, according to JBL, the recommended amp for that speaker is 500W, not 1000W. Are we cool now?
Wrong again.
Power handling for the s115v is 500 watts program and 1000 watts peak. I have the manual right here.I purchased my s215v cabs because they produce more useable low end and they handle 1000 watts continuous and 2000 watts peak.
Stop being a schmuck.
Meanwhile you run your speakers at 3 times the reccomended power.
BTW you are worried about blowing up power amps IIRC it is harder on an amp to run in bridge mode. It also doesn't matter where the gain knob is set on the amp you can still get full power if you boost the signal going into the amp. You have owned a PA for a week. I have 3 PAs and have ran sound for my bands and others for 25 years.
And of course they know more than the real engineers that design amps for a living.
I agree with your post.The problem is unless you know what you are doing it is easy to have an "accident" and toast your speakers. This is why powered speakers are a good option. Less chance of blowing speakers because the amps are the proper size and have limiters already set.
Finally something we both agree on.
+1.
This is the third thread I read on this subject today, and its scary the confidence with which some spread dangerous misinformation to people asking for advice
One literally speaking of tripling the handling rating to an OP who thinks he has volume knobs on his power amp.
:scowl:
Okay. I give. I was of the impression that continuous and program were the same. It seems I have misunderstood how the speakers are rated. The information related to the wattage is misleading.
It is a bit misleading. Program and peak ratings are used to sell speakers. Look at the RMS and use something around it, up to 1.5x is generally fine if the components are good.
Of course you may see experienced guys using 4x the speaker's power rating, but make no mistake, there's a lot of processing going on and it's not for beginners.
Regards.
Yamaha makes decent mixers for the money. I've used a couple of MG series and a powered mixer and they all worked nice.
Your OP says practice and small gigs. I used a powered mixer with a pair of s115IV and for small clubs we didn't come anywhere close to coming up short on power. As far as 15's not producing vocals, I'm not sure where that is coming from. I'm currently using JBL powered EON 15's with a yamaha mixer with 7 vocalist and a horn player and we don't have a problem getting a good sound.
I'm sure it could be better. But coming from the standpoint of a part time band providing our own PA and running our own sound it's more about ease and quickness of load in, setup, soundcheck and load out than sound perfection.
That's why I ditched the S115's. Very heavy. Picked up the EON's with rolling bags, stands and cables for $700 used on craigslist. If you look at used EON's make sure you get the latest generation or the one prior. The older ones have much less power. They are very light.
We're using some cheaper powered speakers as monitors and for larger rooms we add a powered sub, but usually my bass rig and the drummer's amp handle the bottom and we run vocals, guitars, keys and horn through the PA. You can add powered FOH speakers and/or monitors as you need them.
In this gig at a 150-200 people party I only used a wizzy 10 for the bass. Viewer warning: Old white people dancing.
‪The Classics at L.O.V.E‬‏ - YouTube
I would think ska/reggae would be louder but I also run a pop cover band through this system and it works fine. I've done outdoors with it using a larger bass rig and running the drums through the PA and we weren't running at max volume.
As far as the mixer goes, you're already up to 6 mics and that one only has 10 xlr inputs. I would get at least 16. You never have enough inputs.
Get 57s for the horns and 58s for the vocals.
Again, you can do better and get more specialized but after going through several small PA's the powered speaker/mixer/optional powered sub is working out best. Also, the yamaha club 15's are regularly used on CL for $400/pair. Matching subs are about the same. I bought the powered mixer/club 15's, stands and cables for $600.
Well, on the plus side, I have a spare amp, now. Honestly, I don't know what to do amp wise. I'm not sure if I should keep one the amps I have and run it stereo @ 525watts per side, or get a little bit larger amp.
I'm glad I posted here, even though I made myself look stupid. It saved me.
Modulusman, your info was good. Your way of handling it was $#!+.
I'm glad I posted here, even though I made myself look stupid. It saved me.
Modulusman, your info was good. Your way of handling it was $#!+.
I’d say just try it and see how it sounds, but I suspect you’ll be happy, and in a much safer place, as well.
I had a problem with my band leader thinking I was going to be underpowering our cabs, my Yamaha C115Vs and his old, I think BW-loaded 18” subs (he wanted to use), with my QSC GX5 giving each cab 350 watts (run mono utilizing the amp’s 100hz crossover).
He gave me the “clean-watts” speech, but then admitted how amazed he was at how good they sound and the potential volume.
You could use the spare amp for monitors. It is always a good idea to have spare equipment in case something fails.
OK well thanks everybody i think ive got a much better idea of things. if you can't tell ive been changing my mind every 5 minutes it seems. For a mixer, im going to go with the yamaha MG series. I've heard good things from series and for my purposes it should do just fine. Now for speakers im definitely leaning towards Powered electro-voice ELX speakers- either the 112 or 115, but if it dont have a big enough budget i will go with the passive version of those two and buy a separte amp.
Now two last qustions from my noob self
1)assuming i go with the powered speakers, will I notice a large difference in the volume between the active 112 and 115? I understand that bass requires more wattage but as for the highs and lows, what will the main difference be?
2) assuming i go with the passive speakers for budget reasons
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or
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what amp would ya'll recommend i match for each one?
Now two last qustions from my noob self
1)assuming i go with the powered speakers, will I notice a large difference in the volume between the active 112 and 115? I understand that bass requires more wattage but as for the highs and lows, what will the main difference be?
2) assuming i go with the passive speakers for budget reasons
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or
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
what amp would ya'll recommend i match for each one?
On paper they both supposedly get 132-134db maximum SPL. I would go with the powered option if you can. The powered cabinets will sound better than the unpowered versions. If you look at the specs the powered versions are internally EQed to go lower than the unpowered ones plus they are bi-amped.
I agree with these guys about the powered speakers. They sound better and are generally easier to use. Try to find class D power, it's light weight, cool, and powerful.
And.. in light of the arguments going on, I can't really speak for the powered situation.. which is why I think the powered amps are just easier to use. One thing I do know is that a lot of times you buy something that claims to be 1000watts or what have you, but that's just the peak wattage. You should look into the continuous wattage to figure out a more accurate image of the speaker.
Also.. as far as a noticeable difference in volume.. A guy who builds tube amps near me told me some of the technical stuff behind it. He claimed that in order for an amp to be 2 times louder, it needs to have 10 times the wattage.. So basically, a 100 watt tube amp is only 2 times louder than a 10 watt tube amp... Not sure how that really relates to the PA speakers, but it's worth noting.. maybe one of the "experts" can go into detail on this. But I do believe the difference in speaker size only really allows the speaker to push more air, usually more lows I find. And a lot of times, you'll see maybe 2 to 4 dB difference from the different models. I don't think you notice that much of a difference personally unless you have the speakers maxed out all the time.. but.. in that case you would probably lose enough hearing that you wouldn't notice anyway. So if you want more lows, I would go with a bigger speaker.. but just go to a Guitar Center or your local music store and listen for yourself, it's all a matter of preference.
But, as far as finding good speakers on a budege, I highly recommend you check out Alto Professional.. They are a new sister company of Alesis, Numark and Akai. You can't beat the quality for the price, I promise. You can check out their specks online. I think Guitar Center is their only dealer, but since they're new, they do have some giveaways going on that you might want to check out too.
Just a suggestion.. I just discovered their stuff and I'm sold on it.
And.. in light of the arguments going on, I can't really speak for the powered situation.. which is why I think the powered amps are just easier to use. One thing I do know is that a lot of times you buy something that claims to be 1000watts or what have you, but that's just the peak wattage. You should look into the continuous wattage to figure out a more accurate image of the speaker.
Also.. as far as a noticeable difference in volume.. A guy who builds tube amps near me told me some of the technical stuff behind it. He claimed that in order for an amp to be 2 times louder, it needs to have 10 times the wattage.. So basically, a 100 watt tube amp is only 2 times louder than a 10 watt tube amp... Not sure how that really relates to the PA speakers, but it's worth noting.. maybe one of the "experts" can go into detail on this. But I do believe the difference in speaker size only really allows the speaker to push more air, usually more lows I find. And a lot of times, you'll see maybe 2 to 4 dB difference from the different models. I don't think you notice that much of a difference personally unless you have the speakers maxed out all the time.. but.. in that case you would probably lose enough hearing that you wouldn't notice anyway. So if you want more lows, I would go with a bigger speaker.. but just go to a Guitar Center or your local music store and listen for yourself, it's all a matter of preference.
But, as far as finding good speakers on a budege, I highly recommend you check out Alto Professional.. They are a new sister company of Alesis, Numark and Akai. You can't beat the quality for the price, I promise. You can check out their specks online. I think Guitar Center is their only dealer, but since they're new, they do have some giveaways going on that you might want to check out too.
Just a suggestion.. I just discovered their stuff and I'm sold on it.
I install PA systems for a living, and this is how I do it:
I always make sure the amp is capable of delivering more power than is needed for the speakers in question. I then find the "max" level that I can use with the desk faders at full, and adjust the amp levels to make sure it never goes beyond this point! You will find that many higher end brands com with protection plates that you can screw over the volume controls on the amp, I highly reccomend these are used.
REASON FOR THIS: A speaker can with stand a surge that is over it capabilities as long as this is not constant, that´s why manufacturers offer the RMS and peak. It is far more harmful for the speakers to constantly send a "clipped" signal from the amp, this will destroy speakers very quickly!
One important factor to consider though, is that this set up has no "bright red lights" to show you that you are over doing it, and you must judge the capability of the speakers by ear. A 500w amp does not mean it will always produce 250w @ 50% power.
One final reccomendation, if you want 2000w (for example) I would go with 4x500w rather than one big effort! You can always add more!!!!
I always make sure the amp is capable of delivering more power than is needed for the speakers in question. I then find the "max" level that I can use with the desk faders at full, and adjust the amp levels to make sure it never goes beyond this point! You will find that many higher end brands com with protection plates that you can screw over the volume controls on the amp, I highly reccomend these are used.
REASON FOR THIS: A speaker can with stand a surge that is over it capabilities as long as this is not constant, that´s why manufacturers offer the RMS and peak. It is far more harmful for the speakers to constantly send a "clipped" signal from the amp, this will destroy speakers very quickly!
One important factor to consider though, is that this set up has no "bright red lights" to show you that you are over doing it, and you must judge the capability of the speakers by ear. A 500w amp does not mean it will always produce 250w @ 50% power.
One final reccomendation, if you want 2000w (for example) I would go with 4x500w rather than one big effort! You can always add more!!!!
And another guy who thinks the knobs on an amp are volume controls.
The sad thing is you install PA systems for a living.
And another guy who thinks the knobs on an amp are volume controls.
Sorry if my translation to english (my 3rd language) sometimes leaves a lot to be desired!
Also I am relieved that you are sad that I sell PA systems for a living, and not my customers.
PEACE!
Modulusman, do you have any idea at all how to give your opinion without being condescending? Around here, you'd get your @$$ kicked pretty regularly.And another guy who thinks the knobs on an amp are volume controls.
Here's some info for you:
"To optimize the system signal-to-noise ratio, it's best to optimize the levels of the rest of your system and then turn the amp gains up only as far as you need to." -- Bob Lee -- Applications Engineer QSC Audio Products, LLC / Secretary, Audio Engineering Society
