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Double Bass Peacock Blows off Costello...
- Thread starter damonsmith
- Start date
I think wining downbeat awards, grammy nominations, and selling out shows is EXACTLY why Damon thinks his music is middle of the road and smooth jazzy. Success is bad, growth is bad.
The back of my neck is a deep, lifelong red from summers working on my grandmother's farm. The ivory tower came later. Hoo-ah!
Mea culpa. Mea maxima culpa.
[more or less kinda sorta on topic]
Everyone does realize that at this point we're arguing about things which are almost completely subjective, yes? I've seen DH's group live a time or two, and whatever label you stick on it, those guys can play their ***es off. Maybe it's that Dave probably woulda played with Elvis and grinned the whole time whilst doing it that sticks in the craw of those who would label him "smooth jazz"?
[/more or less kinda sorta on topic]
Dave Holland is one of my favorite musicians, both for his playing and composing. I can see where Damon is coming from. The sing-song melodies and vibes steer the boat towards smoothe jazz, but I challenge you to find smoothe jazz that has the rhythmic, harmonic and metric complexity the Dave Holland Quintet has. I will say I like his sound on the early records better. More bold.
But now we're just talking about music we like and music we don't like. I've been listening to Dave Holland, too, since back in the day. Saw the quintet year before last. The musicianship was outstanding. I wouldn't call it anything like the smooth jazz I hear in elevators. But none of that obviates the fact that I could not stay awake for those guys. Sleep city. James Carter opened for them and I found him riveting. Go figure.
- May 6, 2003
- 5,272
- 160
- 64
- Disclosures
- Proprietor Fifth Avenue Fret Shop. Technical Editor Bass Gear Magazine
Oh so now we're debating free jazz vs. smooth jazz vs. whatever jazz and which is better or more artistic?
Yuck. I like fighting about gossip better.
Get back to your day jobs.
Yuck. I like fighting about gossip better.
Get back to your day jobs.
There is no doubt it is different than his older stuff and definitely more melodic and consonant. Because of the topic (or lack there of) of this thread I think MM5's question was a good one.
"Damon, you're whole thing through this 20 pages is about Gary Peacock not compromising his artistic integrity. Are you somehow suggesting Dave Holland has?"
Keeping taste aside do people feel like this has happened?
"Damon, you're whole thing through this 20 pages is about Gary Peacock not compromising his artistic integrity. Are you somehow suggesting Dave Holland has?"
Keeping taste aside do people feel like this has happened?
Kind of like taping together fractions of the dead sea scrolls, but I think we have a story forming here.
I'm having a problem with people saying they love Dave Holland in the '70's on such albums as Conference of the Birds and then turn around and say they don't like the new stuff. I just pulled out Conference of the Birds and Live At Birdland from 2003. Compositionally, they really aren't very far apart. The players on the newer album are a bit more comfortable with odd meter and can play the stuff with more authority than the guys on CoB. Most of Dave Holland's tunes from the new album would not have been out of place on CoB assuming the guys from CoB could've actually played them.
CoB is a great album, no question, but if you're saying the new stuff is somehow wildly different, I'd politely suggest cleaning out your ears. If you want a single example of an album as good if not better than CoB get Extended Play: Live at Birdland.
CoB is a great album, no question, but if you're saying the new stuff is somehow wildly different, I'd politely suggest cleaning out your ears. If you want a single example of an album as good if not better than CoB get Extended Play: Live at Birdland.
I think some of the differences that account for some people prefering CoB to the recent stuff would include
a) Barry Altschul deals with the odd metres in a more 'swing' and also open way, where more recent drummers have used much more backbeat. This is not to suggest that they aren't fantastic drummers, but to my ears Altschul and DeJohnette open up the music more than Billy Kilson or Nate Smith.
b) Braxton and Sam Rivers are on fire on conference of the birds, and much wilder and looser (and therefore likely to appeal to exactly the people who prefer early Dave Holland) than, say Chris Potter. Chris Potter is a phenomenal saxophonist and musician, but he doesn't move me as much as Braxton or Rivers, personally. I often feel, when listening to recent Dave Holland stuff, that CP's playing is quite 'worked out' . I've preferred him in other contexts, ie with paul motian or kenny wheeler.
For me at least, the change isn't so much in Dave's own playing - I love him on recent-ish albums by Joe Lovano, Kenny Wheeler, Betty Carter etc... so much his band and compositions. But I'd love to see them live.
a) Barry Altschul deals with the odd metres in a more 'swing' and also open way, where more recent drummers have used much more backbeat. This is not to suggest that they aren't fantastic drummers, but to my ears Altschul and DeJohnette open up the music more than Billy Kilson or Nate Smith.
b) Braxton and Sam Rivers are on fire on conference of the birds, and much wilder and looser (and therefore likely to appeal to exactly the people who prefer early Dave Holland) than, say Chris Potter. Chris Potter is a phenomenal saxophonist and musician, but he doesn't move me as much as Braxton or Rivers, personally. I often feel, when listening to recent Dave Holland stuff, that CP's playing is quite 'worked out' . I've preferred him in other contexts, ie with paul motian or kenny wheeler.
For me at least, the change isn't so much in Dave's own playing - I love him on recent-ish albums by Joe Lovano, Kenny Wheeler, Betty Carter etc... so much his band and compositions. But I'd love to see them live.
- May 6, 2003
- 5,272
- 160
- 64
- Disclosures
- Proprietor Fifth Avenue Fret Shop. Technical Editor Bass Gear Magazine
A couple of things.
First, although the question was not presented to me, I do not in any way believe that Holland has ever compromised his artistic integrity. I feel that what he is doing IS different from COB days, but shouldn't it be? I love the fact he is doing new things and playing with all sorts of groups. Holland is modern jazz bass to me. I have transcribed Holland more than anyone else . . . and that wouldn't happen if I felt he has compromised anything throughout the years.
Second. I pull out Liebman Trio +1 and Triplicate more often than the Quintet stuff simply because I like listening to it more. I don't really like the sound of vibes and I just like the players in those other recordings. Different doesn't equal bad.
Third. Inferring Damon (Smith) doesn't like Holland's new stuff because he is successful seems like a cheap shot to me. Just an oberservation . . . I haven't agreed with everything Damon has said, but why not listen before assuming?
First, although the question was not presented to me, I do not in any way believe that Holland has ever compromised his artistic integrity. I feel that what he is doing IS different from COB days, but shouldn't it be? I love the fact he is doing new things and playing with all sorts of groups. Holland is modern jazz bass to me. I have transcribed Holland more than anyone else . . . and that wouldn't happen if I felt he has compromised anything throughout the years.
Second. I pull out Liebman Trio +1 and Triplicate more often than the Quintet stuff simply because I like listening to it more. I don't really like the sound of vibes and I just like the players in those other recordings. Different doesn't equal bad.
Third. Inferring Damon (Smith) doesn't like Holland's new stuff because he is successful seems like a cheap shot to me. Just an oberservation . . . I haven't agreed with everything Damon has said, but why not listen before assuming?
No, I think Holland has tons of artisic integrity. I said it is sometimes hard to hear what a innovator he is.
I go to a yougurt shop that has peanut butter yogurt on Mondays it is real good, they play the smooth jazz station, a lot of the melodies could fit right in. As I also said, the improvisiation after the head passes could not.
The moretypical ECM, Garberek, etc. vears more towards newage (Rhymes with sewage) than smooth jazz, either way it get dangerous.
The same has be said for Peacock, really Jarrett is much more middle of the road than Ayler and Bley and much less innovative than either of them or Bill Evans.
Holland's band is great, his playing is great. He isn't really tearing it up (see any of the Sam Rivers trio and duos for that) like he used to, but his music is still good.
I think some of it is the way Potter (He is an incredible player, though) reads down heads, he kind of uses a "modern Pro" surypy sound and waits for his solo to do his own thing.
Holland's work now is more about subtle refinement than wholesale innovation. The Spontaneous Music Ensemble for example creating an entirely new non-jazz, non-idiomatic approach to improvising.
Braxton was a wholesale innovator, as was Rivers.
Holland's reponse to those situation was crucial to modern bass playing and I still feel his current work is relavent, it is probably time for a new solo album from him.
I can't ask for more from one musician, Holland has my eternal respect and can play all the smooth jazz melodies he wants at this point.
Fair enough. But until page 20 or so, we hadn't really been using terms like "don't like" or "don't prefer" very much. The tone has been much more around "manufactured star", "sell out"...
The truth about the Dave Holland Quintet for me is that when I listen to it on record or radio, I recognize that I'm listening to great musicians, but it doesn't reach me. I've seen them live twice and they've blown me away. I've got Holland on a few other records, like the Roy Haynes Bird's of Feather record and I think his playing is great. He seems like a good guy to look up to. I just can't find the inspiraton to purchase his albums. But, lots of other people do, so I doubt he's worried about me.
Just to bring this conversation back off track, when I went to see him play, I did simply because I'm a bassist and he's Dave Holland and I thought I was supposed to. I walked out really geeked about what I had seen. If he had launched into a Keith Jarrettesque rant on stage, I would have written him off forever. Combination of not liking his record and not liking him would have made him forever irrelevant to me.
I've always suspected that I'll discover that I really like those quintet records some day. It's just not what I'm hearing right now.
Maybe it's asking too much to expect any recording to hit the level of benchmarks like "Conference" or the Circle albums. The recent Holland CDs are good, solid recordings, full of good writing and impassioned soloing by some of the great contemporary players. But "Conference" sounds almost as if the gods just said "let's hit it out of the park with this one". Great writing there as well, but the level of play is just at heights that most of us will rarely reach. I think that the players on that particular album must have just stepped out of the way and let the music come through.
Or maybe it was just the times. "Conference" was one of those albums that just spun me around, and made me hear new possibilities. IMHO, YMMV.
PS... whatever happened to Barry Altschul? Totally lost track of him.... what a bad mother!
Or maybe it was just the times. "Conference" was one of those albums that just spun me around, and made me hear new possibilities. IMHO, YMMV.
PS... whatever happened to Barry Altschul? Totally lost track of him.... what a bad mother!
