Pick Downstrokes vs. Down/Up---Can You Tell?

[Methaneman]

So this has been an ongoing controversy on Talkbass for a while now. People on here, especially those who play rock styles, say that downstrokes with a pick always sound different and more consistent than strict down/up. I say that's a load of crap, as I believe that if you want your down/up picking to sound more consistent, you nee

So this has been an ongoing controversy on Talkbass for a while now. People on here, especially those who play rock styles, say that downstrokes with a pick always sound different and more consistent than strict down/up. I say that's a load of crap, as I believe that if you want your down/up picking to sound more consistent, you need to practice till you can't tell the difference, and you'll make it happen if you practice it enough. I also consider straight downpicking at medium tempos and faster to be very detrimental to the health of your picking hand. I can't do it longer than 30 seconds at a time before my hand starts to feel like it's going to fall off. Best I can do with all downstrokes is a walking jazz line with everything hitting on the beat, and even those get challenging when the tempo picks up. Maybe when I was 20 or 30 I could do it. Wish I still could. It certainly looks much cooler onstage. But since 40 came and went, those days are long over.

And still, people argue with me about it, and dare I say, some people who should know better. Folks, you can do anything with practice. That's all it takes. If you can do upstrokes at all, you can do it. And if you can't do upstrokes, time to learn them before you need hand and wrist surgery.

Or maybe I've got my head up my butt and you guys are right. Maybe you really CAN tell. Welp, here's your chance to prove me wrong (or right). I just cut two tracks, one all downstrokes, one all down/up. All you have to do is pick which track is all downstrokes. Your options are A, B and carrots, meaning you can't tell the difference. If a far greater number of people pick the right one, then I'll stop saying it's possible. But it's got to be a pretty wide margin, otherwise I'll think everyone's just flipping a coin, and I shall continue waving the down/up flag. Or pick as it were.

TECH NOTES:

---Signal Path---

Hammersmith PJ with EMG Geezer PJ's, P on full, J off, tone knob up all the way, newish Dunlop Super Bright Nickel rounds, played with Dunlop Max Grip 1.5 mm, into a Tech 21 VT Deluxe set dead clean and flat just to eliminate those tweeter frequencies I hate, into an A Designs REDDI, a Fast Track C400 interface, and Cakewalk. Absolutely no effects were used, and that includes compression.

Played a short bit of 3 popular songs, "Blitzkrieg Bop" by the Ramones, "Shoot To Thrill" by AC/DC, and "Black Velvet" by Allanah Myles. Don't know what possessed me to play that last one, but too late to change it now.

Anyway, I'll give it up to 3 days before I post results, but I may post them after a couple days depending on how many votes we get. I'm looking forward to everyone's comments. Good luck!

Going with B. Sounds clear to me.

 

[mikewalker]

I only caught the first two seconds of each, but I'd say B = downstrokes

 

[Groove Master]

I pick B

 

[bucephylus]

Plectrum work is a little bit like arco (bow) pedagogy with the upright. A skilled player can usually make several different approaches work. And, it is a good thing to develop your technique so that you have choices. An aside to keep in mind is that the directions associated with “up” and “down” with the plectrum vs the bow are reversed.

Making a particular choice depends mainly on the phrasing and style you are trying to get across. All down strokes is useful when you are trying to create a driving or forceful line. Much of R&R has that character, and thus the preference has adherents. For some, electric bass playing may end there. I know some performing artists want only that approach from their bass player. Thank the lord that I never had one of those gigs.

Having a pleurality of techniques at your discretion is a good thing. Use the one that fits the music you play.

 

[iammr2]

So...what was the answer?

 

[JimmyM]

So...what was the answer?

B

 

[dr doofie]

In this Offspring's song, I think that the intro is in full up/down picking, while when the guitar kicks in the riff seems to be played all in downstrokes.

That’s interesting to me cause I brought the point up yesterday that I think downstroking on guitar is absolutely necessary when “called for”. Chords don’t lend to rapid picking with an up/down stroke, as far as sounding alike to downpicking. Bass, generally being played one note at a time, wouldn’t cause the sonic trouble that chords do.
Green Day... Nice Guys Finish Last, is a perfect example. After the intro, bass and drums are alone. Up/down picking obvious. Guitar comes in. Downstroke only is obvious.

 

[JimmyM]

That’s interesting to me cause I brought the point up yesterday that I think downstroking on guitar is absolutely necessary when “called for”. Chords don’t lend to rapid picking with an up/down stroke, as far as sounding alike to downpicking. Bass, generally being played one note at a time, wouldn’t cause the sonic trouble that chords do.
Green Day... Nice Guys Finish Last, is a perfect example. After the intro, bass and drums are alone. Up/down picking obvious. Guitar comes in. Downstroke only is obvious.

Mike Dirnt is another down/up convert. When they started rehearsals for that "American Idiot" Broadway play, the bass player in the pit band was using all downstrokes, and Mike ran up to him and said, "Don't do that! You'll kill your wrist!" Smart man.

 

[TinIndian]

Actually, what I think and what my band members think is way more important to me than what the crowd thinks. Nuances DO get heard and perceived, even if the crowd can't exactly pick them up. Otherwise we could all play $50 practice amps and be fine.

Perhaps some in the crowd may pick up on the differences, But I think the number that could perceive the difference between the two is incredibly small. Now jumping as far to a practice amp versus a proper gigging amp is a dramatic difference that I would expect nearly everyone in the crowd could easily tell.

 

[Honkey tonk]

If you've ever heard a really good drummer on a 3 piece its the many nuances that can make it sound like a huge kit

 

[DeathSlanger]

I completely disagree that all downstrokes is “bad” for you - bad technique is what’s bad for you!

Can you wake up and run a twenty miles? Some people can, but they didn’t get there by not religiously and regularly practicing good technique.

Downstrokes give such a bigger attack, not even in the same ballpark as upstrokes. It took me exactly two seconds to hear that A was both!

 

[JimmyM]

Perhaps some in the crowd may pick up on the differences, But I think the number that could perceive the difference between the two is incredibly small. Now jumping as far to a practice amp versus a proper gigging amp is a dramatic difference that I would expect nearly everyone in the crowd could easily tell.

Well when I'm playing it, I'd agree Still...

 

[JimmyM]

I completely disagree that all downstrokes is “bad” for you - bad technique is what’s bad for you!

Can you wake up and run a twenty miles? Some people can, but they didn’t get there by not religiously and regularly practicing good technique.

Downstrokes give such a bigger attack, not even in the same ballpark as upstrokes. It took me exactly two seconds to hear that A was both!

How old are you and what types of gigging do you do?

 

[DeathSlanger]

How old are you and what types of gigging do you do?

I am 47 and I play out every month or so. I haven’t played bass in a band for about a year, but I currently play surf guitar, and it’s often all downstrokes or that method you display where the upstroke matches well enough for super fast tremolo picking.

Question for you - how were you warming up and was your downstroke technique different from the up & down? And how long did you specifically practice downstrokes? (For me, it’s a completely different position than down/up or chords or muted, etc.) When you state your wrist is about to die, great! Stop playing and do it again the next day, or in a few hours. Eventually you will surpass thirty seconds, then sixty, then two minutes, then as-long-as-you-like!

At least unless you have a disability, which I actually do. My arm muscles were all damaged by horrible (years-long) tendonitis, so they take a lot longer to recover than they used to. If I don’t practice my arms get super tired and sometimes they seize when playing. But with repetition and *not* pushing it, I can now I can easily play downstrokes for an hour. Last time I exceeded that it was my fingertips that started hurting not my wrist!

Then again, I fully appreciate that everyone is dealt different hands in life and some things that are difficult for one fellow may be easy to another.

WAIT A MINUTE - My guitar (or bass) rides very low (due to the injury), so I’m doing a completely different motion than someone with a higher guitar. My picking arm is almost completely straight! I do a lot of super fast downstroke picking mostly with my big shoulder muscles, the arm and hand muscles don’t work as hard... Maybe a low-riding instrument makes it easier to downstroke?

Fyi - I believe every downstroke should have a purpose, and for surf, you kinda need it. When I played bass in a Southern Rock band I mixed it up between fingers and pick, up & down when needed. Pick was for the faster songs, one of which was in fact, 100% fast downstrokes! It took me a few weeks to get in shape for that, and lemme tell you - it was *all* shoulder muscles!

 

[JimmyM]

I am 47 and I play out every month or so. I haven’t played bass in a band for about a year, but I currently play surf guitar, and it’s often all downstrokes or that method you display where the upstroke matches well enough for super fast tremolo picking.

Guitar doesn't count. The strings are thinner and have much less resistance.

Question for you - how were you warming up and was your downstroke technique different from the up & down? And how long did you specifically practice downstrokes? (For me, it’s a completely different position than down/up or chords or muted, etc.) When you state your wrist is about to die, great! Stop playing and do it again the next day, or in a few hours. Eventually you will surpass thirty seconds, then sixty, then two minutes, then as-long-as-you-like!

That's how it worked out for me in my teens, 20's and 30's. I used to practice it a lot. Way more than alternating. I thought alternating looked lame when you're playing rock and roll. When I hit 40, it was all over.

At least unless you have a disability, which I actually do. My arm muscles were all damaged by horrible (years-long) tendonitis, so they take a lot longer to recover than they used to. If I don’t practice my arms get super tired and sometimes they seize when playing. But with repetition and *not* pushing it, I can now I can easily play downstrokes for an hour. Last time I exceeded that it was my fingertips that started hurting not my wrist!

Tendonitis, eh? Well the obvious question is what caused it? I know musicians who have gotten it from left hand death grips, holding their picking hand with a bent wrist like a guitarist, and from doing all downstrokes. It's something I've never had, though, because when I had pain, I stopped and figured out why I had it and corrected it.

Then again, I fully appreciate that everyone is dealt different hands in life and some things that are difficult for one fellow may be easy to another.

WAIT A MINUTE - My guitar (or bass) rides very low (due to the injury), so I’m doing a completely different motion than someone with a higher guitar. My picking arm is almost completely straight! I do a lot of super fast downstroke picking mostly with my big shoulder muscles, the arm and hand muscles don’t work as hard... Maybe a low-riding instrument makes it easier to downstroke?

Youre just transferring the injury-prone area from the hand and wrist to the shoulder by doing that.

Fyi - I believe every downstroke should have a purpose, and for surf, you kinda need it. When I played bass in a Southern Rock band I mixed it up between fingers and pick, up & down when needed. Pick was for the faster songs, one of which was in fact, 100% fast downstrokes! It took me a few weeks to get in shape for that, and lemme tell you - it was *all* shoulder muscles!

Good luck to your shoulder! Frankly, how other people do their thing is immaterial to me. All I'm concerned about is keeping myself injury free. But if you had tendonitis, I'd seriously be asking myself how much my technique contributed to it. I don't know if it did or not, of course, but I know of plenty of folks whose technique absolutely contributed to serious injuries.

 

[DeathSlanger]

Guitar doesn't count. The strings are thinner and have much less resistance.


That's how it worked out for me in my teens, 20's and 30's. I used to practice it a lot. Way more than alternating. I thought alternating looked lame when you're playing rock and roll. When I hit 40, it was all over.


Tendonitis, eh? Well the obvious question is what caused it? I know musicians who have gotten it from left hand death grips, holding their picking hand with a bent wrist like a guitarist, and from doing all downstrokes. It's something I've never had, though, because when I had pain, I stopped and figured out why I had it and corrected it.


Youre just transferring the injury-prone area from the hand and wrist to the shoulder by doing that.


Good luck to your shoulder! Frankly, how other people do their thing is immaterial to me. All I'm concerned about is keeping myself injury free. But if you had tendonitis, I'd seriously be asking myself how much my technique contributed to it. I don't know if it did or not, of course, but I know of plenty of folks whose technique absolutely contributed to serious injuries.

It was a non-ergonomic workstation that caused it when I was video editing in the 90s. I know what you’re saying and thankfully playing has only been affected by the guitar position. And no, I’m not transferring inflammation. I know this because I know what that feels like. My injury started with my right 2nd thumb joint, then spread to include both arms. Nothing like that kind of pain happens now. No aching forearms, no sharp pains when I clench, nothing but some slight stiffness that goes away after playing for about five minutes. But thanks for caring dude! This condition of mine is something I’m actually grateful for, since I can still play and cannot work a computer job...

Ask any MD who is familiar with RSI and they will tell you to *always* use bigger muscles. For example, don’t rest your elbows on a chair while you type. Don’t walk only with feet muscles. If I used hand and forearm muscles, I’d have been dead in the water decades ago.

Also, I’m not sure where you got “injury-prone” from? The injury is over and no further injuries have happened. It just gets sore when I bend my strumming arm, and slightly stiff once in a while. It happened when I was 27.

I think guitar does count because it’s still downstrokes. The wrist muscles you’re talking about is in your picking hand, right? The fatter bass strings aren’t nearly as different for my picking hand vs. fretting hand. Anyway I played BASS for a few years and did plenty of downstrokes, but only when needed.

I think you’re being smart, but maybe a little over-cautious!

 

[JimmyM]

Also, I’m not sure where you got “injury-prone” from? The injury is over and no further injuries have happened. It just gets sore when I bend my strumming arm, and slightly stiff once in a while. It happened when I was 27.

Ah, but you're not the only person in the world and for most people, the injuries from downstroking happen in the hand and wrist. So it's an injury-prone area for a lot of people, and it certainly is for me.

And I 100% stand behind my comment about using the shoulder. It may be fine, and it may be safer than using the hand and wrist...until it's not. Even runners who know the best ergonomic techniques will injure themselves sometimes.

And the reason guitar doesn't count as much is because the strings are a lot lighter and easier to set in motion. However, you can still get RSI's from downstroking on guitar, too. It's just a little more forgiving. But these ergonomic techniques for bass picking work just as well on guitar, and a lot of guitarists recommend them for guitar as well.

 

[dr doofie]

Mike Dirnt is another down/up convert. When they started rehearsals for that "American Idiot" Broadway play, the bass player in the pit band was using all downstrokes, and Mike ran up to him and said, "Don't do that! You'll kill your wrist!" Smart man.

And you can hear the contrast in the song between Billy Joe and Mike. The bass sounds loose and free but still tight, and the guitar is like a well oiled machine. But even Billy Joe doesn’t downstroke all the time; he’s more like power chord buzzsaw.

 

[dr doofie]

I am 47 and I play out every month or so. I haven’t played bass in a band for about a year, but I currently play surf guitar, and it’s often all downstrokes or that method you display where the upstroke matches well enough for super fast tremolo picking.

Question for you - how were you warming up and was your downstroke technique different from the up & down? And how long did you specifically practice downstrokes? (For me, it’s a completely different position than down/up or chords or muted, etc.) When you state your wrist is about to die, great! Stop playing and do it again the next day, or in a few hours. Eventually you will surpass thirty seconds, then sixty, then two minutes, then as-long-as-you-like!

At least unless you have a disability, which I actually do. My arm muscles were all damaged by horrible (years-long) tendonitis, so they take a lot longer to recover than they used to. If I don’t practice my arms get super tired and sometimes they seize when playing. But with repetition and *not* pushing it, I can now I can easily play downstrokes for an hour. Last time I exceeded that it was my fingertips that started hurting not my wrist!

Then again, I fully appreciate that everyone is dealt different hands in life and some things that are difficult for one fellow may be easy to another.

WAIT A MINUTE - My guitar (or bass) rides very low (due to the injury), so I’m doing a completely different motion than someone with a higher guitar. My picking arm is almost completely straight! I do a lot of super fast downstroke picking mostly with my big shoulder muscles, the arm and hand muscles don’t work as hard... Maybe a low-riding instrument makes it easier to downstroke?

Fyi - I believe every downstroke should have a purpose, and for surf, you kinda need it. When I played bass in a Southern Rock band I mixed it up between fingers and pick, up & down when needed. Pick was for the faster songs, one of which was in fact, 100% fast downstrokes! It took me a few weeks to get in shape for that, and lemme tell you - it was *all* shoulder muscles!

I agree with the position of the instrument affecting downstrokes. I play both bass and guitar low enough that my strumming arm is almost straight; my elbow goes to krap if it’s bent...upstroke, downstroke, picking, fingers, etc...doesn’t matter.
My speed and accuracy is better playing lower but I sacrifice a little in fretting.

 

[CryingBass]

I think this thread is going to need a lawyer.

Keep on strokin’ in any direction that feels good. And sounds good. Peace.