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Playing a Rickenbacker made me hate Rickenbacker

Please tell me that route between the control cavity and neck pup did not come from the factory like that??

Someone mentioned that they no longer do that......... I can't believe they ever did. That is some seriously amateur looking work.

Being a neck through instrument, the fingerboard sits about 3/8" above the top of the body. This makes it impossible to get a standard plunge router anywhere near the neck to route the bass for that wire. The neck pickup route used to be done with a much larger Forstner, but eventually RIC started using a small square jig to suspend the router above the body. A larger jig to connect the neck pickup and control cavity routes was never made. I can't believe anyone would beat up a sales rep over what was at most, a minor quirk of RIC manufacturing.
 
Here is the statement I was responding to: "In my opinion if Squire can make a flawless guitar for $200 Rick should be able to for $2000."

'Decent' quality control does not equal 'flawless.' I never said Squiers aren't good, but calling them 'flawless' is just ridiculous.

It really depends on what attributes you're looking for whether you can call an item "flawless" or not--more or less your definition/expectations. I'd look for consistent routing, bridge placement, fret heights within some tolerance, and consistent neck alignment. Secondarily maybe I'd be looking at the finish, i.e. does the binding line up, is there a lack of finish bubbles, etc. Of course the pickup/electronics build quality is in there too.

Just because a Squier uses a set of cheap potentiometers, or a bridge that isn't as dense, etc. that doesn't mean that it instantly has low build quality. The soldering job is often good, and the parts work as intended. These basses were designed by Leo Fender from day one to be adjustable and allow relatively large deviations in manufacturing tolerances. Many of Leo Fender's decisions were for cost cutting, not for tone or playability. The Fender P bass was a design meant to cut manufacturing costs so he could offer a cheaper product and make more money. You can adjust various parts so that you don't need really tight tolerances in manufacturing.

I'd expect that you can give any quality bass a setup to the manufacturer recommended specs. Squiers can do this, follow the Fender Setup Guide and you'll be able to get most Squiers at those specs playing comfortably. If you want to get even lower action or a straighter neck you're no longer following the manufacturer recommendations so why do you expect it to work? It's not a build quality problem, it's an expectations problem. And, this can be fixed. Put your Squier bass in a Plek machine, for example.

The ability to set your action lower or neck straighter than what the manufacturer recommends is something I'd say is reserved for "high performance" instruments. A high performance instrument is going to be made to tighter specifications, maybe allowing you to set the action lower, or gain some other performance benefit through additional features. People pay for the tighter tolerance and performance features and that's fine, however that doesn't mean the lower performance instrument is somehow inferior. It depends on your use case and expectations.

For an analogy compare a Toyota Highlander to a Lexus LX. Is the Lexus higher quality? I suppose you could say "yes" if you're looking for a high performance engine, etc.. However, in my opinion there isn't much of a build quality difference. They both work exactly how they're intended to work. There is a feature difference, but not so much a build quality difference. The Toyota and the Lexus can both be flawless in terms of build quality even if the Lexus has some features that make it higher performance for some individuals.

All of that taken into consideration, plenty of Squiers would meet my expectations of "flawless". Many won't have much if any finish flaws, or alignment issues, etc. because they're predominately made by machines or on an assembly line. The whole point of this style of manufacturing is you build products consistently. Paired with the ingenious Leo Fender design you can adjust away most of the problems by looser manufacturing tolerances. Or, you can make your Squier higher performance just by putting a bit of money in it, kinda like some guys sup up their Honda Civics for racing.

Like anything there is always variance unit to unit. American Fenders sometimes come out worse than other American Fenders for example. In the past I think Squier had quality control issues and I would agree they were not made very consistently. However I don't think it's so much of a problem anymore. Anymore I think you're paying for features rather than quality, most of the time. That is mostly thanks to automated manufacturing and better factory design.

Anyway. I think what you're saying is that Squiers don't meet some of your expectations in a bass, but I think you may be confusing cheap parts or lack of high performance features with low build quality. The build quality is pretty high on most Squiers, but the part and finish choices are cheap. They are made only to be used at manufacturer recommended specs. You can feel the cheapness and lack of higher performance features, and you may not like it, but this doesn't mean the bass has some issue in build quality.

At any rate, all that being said, I do appreciate a MIA bass and I understand the differences between them and Squiers or MIMs. I'm partial to G&Ls. I guess I just don't have the expectation that a Squier should be a high performance instrument, however I do have the expectation they should be built consistently. Most of the time they are I think.
 
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It really depends on what attributes you're looking for whether you can call an item "flawless" or not--more or less your definition/expectations. I'd look for consistent routing, bridge placement, fret heights within some tolerance, and consistent neck alignment. Secondarily maybe I'd be looking at the finish, i.e. does the binding line up, is there a lack of finish bubbles, etc. Of course the pickup/electronics build quality is in there too.

Just because a Squier uses a set of cheap potentiometers, or a bridge that isn't as dense, etc. that doesn't mean that it instantly has low build quality. The soldering job is often good, and the parts work as intended. These basses were designed by Leo Fender from day one to be adjustable and allow relatively large deviations in manufacturing tolerances. Many of Leo Fender's decisions were for cost cutting, not for tone or playability. The Fender P bass was a design meant to cut manufacturing costs so he could offer a cheaper product and make more money. You can adjust various parts so that you don't need really tight tolerances in manufacturing.

I'd expect that you can give any quality bass a setup to the manufacturer recommended specs. Squiers can do this, follow the Fender Setup Guide and you'll be able to get most Squiers at those specs playing comfortably. If you want to get even lower action or a straighter neck you're no longer following the manufacturer recommendations so why do you expect it to work? It's not a build quality problem, it's an expectations problem. And, this can be fixed. Put your Squier bass in a Plek machine, for example.

The ability to set your action lower or neck straighter than what the manufacturer recommends is something I'd say is reserved for "high performance" instruments. A high performance instrument is going to be made to tighter specifications, maybe allowing you to set the action lower, or gain some other performance benefit through additional features. People pay for the tighter tolerance and performance features and that's fine, however that doesn't mean the lower performance instrument is somehow inferior. It depends on your use case and expectations.

For an analogy compare a Toyota Highlander to a Lexus LX. Is the Lexus higher quality? I suppose you could say "yes" if you're looking for a high performance engine, etc.. However, in my opinion there isn't much of a build quality difference. They both work exactly how they're intended to work. There is a feature difference, but not so much a build quality difference. The Toyota and the Lexus can both be flawless in terms of build quality even if the Lexus has some features that make it higher performance for some individuals.

All of that taken into consideration, plenty of Squiers would meet my expectations of "flawless". Many won't have much if any finish flaws, or alignment issues, etc. because they're predominately made by machines or on an assembly line. The whole point of this style of manufacturing is you build products consistently. Paired with the ingenious Leo Fender design you can adjust away most of the problems by looser manufacturing tolerances. Or, you can make your Squier higher performance just by putting a bit of money in it, kinda like some guys sup up their Honda Civics for racing.

Like anything there is always variance unit to unit. American Fenders sometimes come out worse than other American Fenders for example. In the past I think Squier had quality control issues and I would agree they were not made very consistently. However I don't think it's so much of a problem anymore. Anymore I think you're paying for features rather than quality, most of the time. That is mostly thanks to automated manufacturing and better factory design.

Anyway. I think what you're saying is that Squiers don't meet some of your expectations in a bass, but I think you may be confusing cheap parts or lack of high performance features with low build quality. The build quality is pretty high on most Squiers, but the part and finish choices are cheap. They are made only to be used at manufacturer recommended specs. You can feel the cheapness and lack of higher performance features, and you may not like it, but this doesn't mean the bass has some issue in build quality.
You're not understanding what I'm saying. I'm not disappointed with Squire; it is irrelevant what I think about them; I never said they weren't good basses. I'm saying they aren't flawless. Now we're arguing about what flawless means???? A bass where many replace tuners, bridge and pickups is FLAWLESS??? Only on TB. :rollno:

I'm really out of this thread for good now. Buy all the Squiers you want.:thumbsup:
 
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You're not understanding what I'm saying. I'm not disappointed with Squire; it is irrelevant what I think about them; I never said they weren't good basses. I'm saying they aren't flawless. Now we're arguing about what flawless means???? A bass where many replace tuners, bridge and pickups is FLAWLESS??? Only on TB. :rollno:

I'm really out of this thread for good now. Buy all the Squiers you want.:thumbsup:

No, I'm saying that I think you're confusing features and build quality. That's all. You don't need to replace the tuners, bridge, etc. to get a Squier bass set up to Fender recommended specs 90% of the time. If the tuners were breaking, the neck was misaligned, etc. then I'd say there is a build quality problem and the bass isn't "flawless".

Where is the flaw in a bass that can be set up to the exact manufacturer recommended specs? Where is the flaw when all the bass parts work and aren't broken?

So, I think you're looking for high performance features when you are talking about whether a bass is flawless or not. The other person I believe was talking about build quality. Squier build quality can be flawless even if the basses aren't as nice or performant as another higher priced bass.

I don't own any Squiers.
 
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I'm a three decade owner. It's been a blast. :D
I have to think that the experiences that other people are relating about modern QC have to be pointing somewhere.
I won't make excuses for it just because I own one.

This. I'm a 25 year owner, and have loads of fun with mine. That said, some new ones seem to be making their way out the door before they should be.
 
I owned a 5 string active Squier Jazz bass that was absolutely, undoubtedly, flawless regarding craftsmanship and quality control. It was flawless in design (which is all subjective anyhow) as far as I was concerned also. Especially for the price. Only issue the bass had was that dang logo on the headstock that everyone stared at and commented on.

Same was true for my Ric. Except for the headstock part. Headstock on the Ric kicks ass.
 
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image.gif
It really depends on what attributes you're looking for whether you can call an item "flawless" or not--more or less your definition/expectations. I'd look for consistent routing, bridge placement, fret heights within some tolerance, and consistent neck alignment. Secondarily maybe I'd be looking at the finish, i.e. does the binding line up, is there a lack of finish bubbles, etc. Of course the pickup/electronics build quality is in there too.

Just because a Squier uses a set of cheap potentiometers, or a bridge that isn't as dense, etc. that doesn't mean that it instantly has low build quality. The soldering job is often good, and the parts work as intended. These basses were designed by Leo Fender from day one to be adjustable and allow relatively large deviations in manufacturing tolerances. Many of Leo Fender's decisions were for cost cutting, not for tone or playability. The Fender P bass was a design meant to cut manufacturing costs so he could offer a cheaper product and make more money. You can adjust various parts so that you don't need really tight tolerances in manufacturing.

I'd expect that you can give any quality bass a setup to the manufacturer recommended specs. Squiers can do this, follow the Fender Setup Guide and you'll be able to get most Squiers at those specs playing comfortably. If you want to get even lower action or a straighter neck you're no longer following the manufacturer recommendations so why do you expect it to work? It's not a build quality problem, it's an expectations problem. And, this can be fixed. Put your Squier bass in a Plek machine, for example.

The ability to set your action lower or neck straighter than what the manufacturer recommends is something I'd say is reserved for "high performance" instruments. A high performance instrument is going to be made to tighter specifications, maybe allowing you to set the action lower, or gain some other performance benefit through additional features. People pay for the tighter tolerance and performance features and that's fine, however that doesn't mean the lower performance instrument is somehow inferior. It depends on your use case and expectations.

For an analogy compare a Toyota Highlander to a Lexus LX. Is the Lexus higher quality? I suppose you could say "yes" if you're looking for a high performance engine, etc.. However, in my opinion there isn't much of a build quality difference. They both work exactly how they're intended to work. There is a feature difference, but not so much a build quality difference. The Toyota and the Lexus can both be flawless in terms of build quality even if the Lexus has some features that make it higher performance for some individuals.

All of that taken into consideration, plenty of Squiers would meet my expectations of "flawless". Many won't have much if any finish flaws, or alignment issues, etc. because they're predominately made by machines or on an assembly line. The whole point of this style of manufacturing is you build products consistently. Paired with the ingenious Leo Fender design you can adjust away most of the problems by looser manufacturing tolerances. Or, you can make your Squier higher performance just by putting a bit of money in it, kinda like some guys sup up their Honda Civics for racing.

Like anything there is always variance unit to unit. American Fenders sometimes come out worse than other American Fenders for example. In the past I think Squier had quality control issues and I would agree they were not made very consistently. However I don't think it's so much of a problem anymore. Anymore I think you're paying for features rather than quality, most of the time. That is mostly thanks to automated manufacturing and better factory design.

Anyway. I think what you're saying is that Squiers don't meet some of your expectations in a bass, but I think you may be confusing cheap parts or lack of high performance features with low build quality. The build quality is pretty high on most Squiers, but the part and finish choices are cheap. They are made only to be used at manufacturer recommended specs. You can feel the cheapness and lack of higher performance features, and you may not like it, but this doesn't mean the bass has some issue in build quality.

At any rate, all that being said, I do appreciate a MIA bass and I understand the differences between them and Squiers or MIMs. I'm partial to G&Ls. I guess I just don't have the expectation that a Squier should be a high performance instrument, however I do have the expectation they should be built consistently. Most of the time they are I think.
 
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You're not understanding what I'm saying. I'm not disappointed with Squire; it is irrelevant what I think about them; I never said they weren't good basses. I'm saying they aren't flawless. Now we're arguing about what flawless means???? A bass where many replace tuners, bridge and pickups is FLAWLESS??? Only on TB. :rollno:

I'm really out of this thread for good now. Buy all the Squiers you want.:thumbsup:

My technique was flawless once. But I was drunk at the time.
 
Hmm, I don't know. My beef with so much of what is produced today comes down to the microchips and other things that run them. Cars with endless problems because of microchips failing, sensors failing, voltage drops causing errors in the systems......drives me crazy. Sorry, but my 1970 LeMans was rock solid 90% of the time, and I could do the basic maintenance in an hour or so on a weekend.

Then there is the dishwasher my mom bought a couple of years ago. This replace the one that came with her new condo......in 1979. So, dishwasher #1 lasted 35 years. Shortly after the warranty period, her new one started flaking out. Repairman ($78 just to show up) said "it's the motherboard, which will cost $300 to buy and replace". Well, it's a $500 machine, and it's just a bit over two years old. He showed her how to "trick" the brains of it by hitting a combination of buttons at start up. That worked for almost a year, and then even that didn't work anymore. She said "the hell with it" and bought a new machine.

My refrigerator, $2000, had to have the ice maker replaced twice in the first year. This replaced a 12 year old unit that was in the house when we bought it.

If I sat and thought about it some more, I'm sure I can think of a number of other things (VCRS, DVD players, alarm clocks, stereos, coffee makers) I have bought over the past ten years or so that have had issues rather early on, due in most part to computer controls flaking out.

I'm no Luddite, but I long for the days when a coffee maker just made coffee, a toaster oven just made toast, and a washing machine just washed clothes. They don't need more technology than the space shuttle to do their job effectively. I just want stuff to work, work reliably and predictably, and for a long time. I hate the disposable nature of products these days - cheaper to replace than to repair. Drives me nuts.

/rant

Oh, I get it. I really liked working on my car back in the day - but now? LOL - not really possible! But the general fit and finish / quality of what I can buy now? It's SO much better than in the '70s - and the includes basses / amps for sure.
 
Hmm, I don't know. My beef with so much of what is produced today comes down to the microchips and other things that run them. Cars with endless problems because of microchips failing, sensors failing, voltage drops causing errors in the systems......drives me crazy. Sorry, but my 1970 LeMans was rock solid 90% of the time, and I could do the basic maintenance in an hour or so on a weekend.

The average car of that era was good for about 100,000 before an engine rebuild.

Sure a rebuild was a lot cheaper and easier than on a modern car - but lots of new cars are only expecting their first tune up at 100,000.



I'm no Luddite, but I long for the days when a coffee maker just made coffee, a toaster oven just made toast, and a washing machine just washed clothes. They don't need more technology than the space shuttle to do their job effectively. I just want stuff to work, work reliably and predictably, and for a long time. I hate the disposable nature of products these days - cheaper to replace than to repair. Drives me nuts.

/rant

In 1952 a basic Coldpoint refrigerator cost $329. That is $3000 adjusted for inflation.

You could get this:
1952coldspotrefrigerator.jpg


For only 50% more than you paid.




You can also still get the really simple stuff if you want it.

For example - Speed Queen washing machines. Mechanical controls. Made in the USA.

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
 
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The average car of that era was good for about 100,000 before an engine rebuild.

Sure a rebuild was a lot cheaper and easier than on a modern car - but lots of new cars are only expecting their first tune up at 100,000.





In 1952 a basic Coldpoint refrigerator cost $329. That is $3000 adjusted for inflation.

You could get this:
1952coldspotrefrigerator.jpg


For only 50% more than you paid.




You can also still get the really simple stuff if you want it.

For example - Speed Queen washing machines. Mechanical controls. Made in the USA.

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Bah!

Who rebuilds a car engine anymore?? And, in the run up to that first 100K, how many quirky issues are they having? That's my gripe. A buddy of mine bought some new Volvo CX something or other for his wife six months ago. The other day I saw her driving a volvo sedan. It was a loaner, as they had to give the CX back to the dealer so many times for issues that they finally said take it, and dont give it back to us until you know its working correctly.

Right now, there are so many things controlled by sensors and voltage it can be damn near impossible to troubleshoot. They just go in and start replacing components and if the problem doesn't happen again, it's "fixed".

Is that fridge above worth more than what I paid? Well, maybe - if it lasts 30 years, rather than crapping out within five.
 
Bah!

Who rebuilds a car engine anymore?? And, in the run up to that first 100K, how many quirky issues are they having? That's my gripe. A buddy of mine bought some new Volvo CX something or other for his wife six months ago. The other day I saw her driving a volvo sedan. It was a loaner, as they had to give the CX back to the dealer so many times for issues that they finally said take it, and dont give it back to us until you know its working correctly.

Right now, there are so many things controlled by sensors and voltage it can be damn near impossible to troubleshoot. They just go in and start replacing components and if the problem doesn't happen again, it's "fixed".

Is that fridge above worth more than what I paid? Well, maybe - if it lasts 30 years, rather than crapping out within five.
Every little sensor also costs an arm and a leg to buy.
An old Delco alt can be rebuilt for $35 and an hour of your time.
 
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