Why in the mains with out subs? Seems pointless to over balance the lows your amp is producing. Bare has been there since before I was born.
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Playing live in a room
- Thread starter Slaphound
- Start date
Why in the mains with out subs? Seems pointless to over balance the lows your amp is producing. Bare has been there since before I was born.
We just opened for Black P*ssy a couple weeks ago. The entire stage was Sunn, except for the nook behind the singer. There's a drummer back there somewhere. They were chest-rattling loud. And harmonies, note definition, ect. Not sure why there is an attitude that a lot of amps = mush. Since we've stepped up and provided examples to disprove your "theory", can we have an example of the unintelligible-ness you keep referring to?
Hopkins
Commercial User
We borrowed a pair of old Cerwin-Vega subs for those gigs, they were out door gigs at a BBQ cook off. It was a good thing I was in the PA because my amp overheated and the only thing that was still working was the DI.
I don't think I would play that bar, the guy wants live music but wont spend the money to do it properly. I believe I would just pass on that one.
Again depends on what and where your playing my friends are heavy in the DIY punk scene and that means a lot of house shows and taquerias hosting shows no PA's present so most bands have their vocalists singing into whatever guitar combo is available...
Underground punk/metal/heavy rock isn't very profitable most "venues" charge little to nothing here and the crowds are pretty much people in the know only.
So basically we're saying in these scenes things are kinda ghetto, but we also enjoy the special kinda loud that comes with that. We think the music is good and are willing to play/listen in these conditions to support it.
So when people start knocking whole genres of music when they obviously do not listen to it or have ever experienced it first hand it's kind of insulting.
It makes sense to make your judgements based on what you know, but you need to be open minded enough to realize you're music and scene can be very different and just respect the difference.
As for loud being a sign of bad music or lack of talent, I think that's just ridiculous to say as a blanket statement and sounds mostly like people are trying to feed the flames of controversy.
Sorry not all directed at you but I'm not gonna multi quote.
Consider that in a 1000 seater the PA you'll need to get the vox and drums to compete with that SVT you're cranking is gonna be in the neighbourhood of a 20,000w+ line array rig. At some point you have to play to the room you're in with the PA you have regardless of how "heavy" you are. I've teched a lot of shows with bands like Sevendust and Megadeth that need to be real loud to be convincing but were pro enough not be clipping the PA or killing the room.
Whatever PA you have wouldn't the ultimate goal be to play at a volume that the band likes, the audience likes, that works for the room manager or promoter (and everyone he needs to keep happy) AND that the soundman can work with given the room and the gear he has? Genre doesn't really have much to do with it.
Whatever PA you have wouldn't the ultimate goal be to play at a volume that the band likes, the audience likes, that works for the room manager or promoter (and everyone he needs to keep happy) AND that the soundman can work with given the room and the gear he has? Genre doesn't really have much to do with it.
Hopkins
Commercial User
I don't mind loud at all, If I go to a rock show I expect it to be loud. It looses alot of its energy if you aren't getting hit in the chest by a kick drum, and the bass isn't rattling your fillings loose. But experience has taught me that it is much easier for a sound guy to make your band sound good if your stage volume isn't working against him/her.
I can only assume that's an broad exaggeration mixed with people who just don't dig distortion/loudness in general (hides sloppy playing!). And it always seems to be the same people complaining so I assume they'd have a good reason or just don't like stuff and really like complaining
That again is going under the assumption the PA is present, quality and available for everyone in the band to use. Also that the sound guy is competent. If that's all true then yea.
Also some guys spend a lot of money on a killer rig that sounds awesome just the way it is. So it's kinda disheartening if you had to use some crappy DI.
If your playing less aggressive music and just have a clean bass signal into a flat EQ and playing venues where people come to dance or sit down your talking from a vastly different world and assuming it's what everyone experiences. Again not wrong of you to assume based on what you know.
But it seems most people outside the heavy genres think we just understand how it all works. Who wouldn't take advantage of a killer sound guy and PA if it was available and did what we needed?
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Most people don't like being crapped on for their music.Who knew the stoner/doom guys were so sensitive?
Anyway, I get what the OP is talking about. Bands too loud for the gig. Some gigs are supposed to be too loud. Others aren't.
Most of the various groups on here get annoyed when people start bashing them. Just look at any thread where people are bashing originals bands, or bashing cover bands.
Hopkins
Commercial User
Ive played on a few very bad PA's in which I have opted to carry the room with my rig, but those are few and far between. Like I said, I may just be lucky to be in the location I am in.
Luck and what music you play yes. Houston's a big city, not everyone's living in one that's for sure
I'm up in DFW there's awesome venues for sure for all kinds of music here too. Though if your bands not very big you might not be playing those venues, or even in legitimate venues.
The OP didn't mention stoner doom. It was about bands playing too loud for the room. Which happens quite often. I've been in a band where the guys wanted to take the full PA, half stacks and mic the drums in a 60 seat bar. Not long. I was at a party not long ago where there were a bunch of tables/chairs set up in front of the stage, band wailing away, but everyone was either standing along the back wall or in the next room.
You guys are at the extreme. Out in gen pop people sometimes don't want to wear earplugs while they eat.
One guy ragged on you before it turned into a "stoner doom is supposed to be loud" thread. I thought it was funny.
How incredibly lovely for you. Your situation isn't everyone else's. The norms for genres you play aren't universal, nor are the norms for the places you play necessarily universal.
I play with both doom metal and folk/rock bands. I almost never, ever have PA support in either of those cases. In some cases, we've had to bring a PA.
Neither Sevendust nor Megadeth are doom bands.
People going to stoner doom bands expect volumes that are very high even by rock, punk, and metal standards.
The only things we had in the PA during sunday night's gig were vocals, kick drum, and keys. Everything else was blaringly loud with the rigs. We got compliments about how we sounded from lots of people, including a couple of people who do sound engineering, one of which was the soundman himself.
As for vocals balancing, the goal is for the vocals to be audible in this genre, but not louder than everything else. It really isn't about the vocals, they're just one of the instruments.
In rehearsal, do you put the bass through the PA? Most bands I know here do not. We've already had to basically mix ourselves.
Sound people who work the kinds of shows we're on know how this genre works, and what to expect, and that it's basically on the band to have sounds that work well together. Bands that have their act together will sound good, bands that don't will not.
At larger venues, like the Oakland Metro, or the Fox, for instance, bands will be put through the PA. They will still have loud stage volume, because the musicians themselves want to be experiencing the same high volume that the audience is.
Look, people, nobody is expecting you to like what we play, or be interested in doing what we do. You don't see me telling people in classic rock bar cover bands how to do what they do, because it is their craft, and not mine. They probably know what they're doing if they're any good. The same courtesy should apply here, too.
Always amazes me, the blame game that happens when loudness is discussed. Different styles of music have different average volumes. simple as that. Volume is matched to the dynamic range of the loudest unplugged instrument of the group which is......anyone.....bueler?......Correctamundo....DRUMS. Yes thats correct, the one instrument that has no volume knob.
The stoner/doom/dessert rock issue is simple too. Many of the sounds of these genres feature guitar sounds that have very little treble and an tons of low end, frequencies normally occupied by the bass guitar. The bass guitar is in turn shifted down in frequencies with an emphasis toward the low end. If the mids/high end of the bass is brought up, while it cuts through better, it robs the kick drum which is already at a loss. Also, many of the riffs are the guitar and bass playing the same thing. All this leads to frequency stacking, the result is usually percieved as a muddy mess. It takes some skill to balance it out to where you can hear everything and even then there will still be some areas that are just not going to be heard due to phase cancellation and frequency cancellation. Usually the instinctive solution most players come to is to turn up volumes or worse yet, boost lows, simply exacerbating the problem.
So, the solution is to cut a little bit of the lows from everyone except the drummer. Its counter intuitive and until you have been in a studio tracking and the producer or tracking engineer makes those adjustments you probably will not know it. Dosnt mean your a bad musician or an ass, youre just being instinctive.
So quit blaming people for being people and quit hating on particular types of music....now go forth and eat pickles or carrots or whatever.
The stoner/doom/dessert rock issue is simple too. Many of the sounds of these genres feature guitar sounds that have very little treble and an tons of low end, frequencies normally occupied by the bass guitar. The bass guitar is in turn shifted down in frequencies with an emphasis toward the low end. If the mids/high end of the bass is brought up, while it cuts through better, it robs the kick drum which is already at a loss. Also, many of the riffs are the guitar and bass playing the same thing. All this leads to frequency stacking, the result is usually percieved as a muddy mess. It takes some skill to balance it out to where you can hear everything and even then there will still be some areas that are just not going to be heard due to phase cancellation and frequency cancellation. Usually the instinctive solution most players come to is to turn up volumes or worse yet, boost lows, simply exacerbating the problem.
So, the solution is to cut a little bit of the lows from everyone except the drummer. Its counter intuitive and until you have been in a studio tracking and the producer or tracking engineer makes those adjustments you probably will not know it. Dosnt mean your a bad musician or an ass, youre just being instinctive.
So quit blaming people for being people and quit hating on particular types of music....now go forth and eat pickles or carrots or whatever.
We are.
But people are acting like too loud is some objective thing. It's not. It entirely depends on the context. My stoner doom band would be too loud for the shows my folk/rock band plays. The folk/rock band would be far too quiet for the shows my stoner doom band gets booked on. In the case of the shows I play with the stoner doom band, we're not playing as background music for people to eat.
Those aren't pickles. Try theseI appreciate it. And I'm glad some people appreciate them- my wife loves them for example. It just means when I get pickles on the side of my dinner burger that someone still enjoys them
Yep. The stoner/doom bands that sound good are generally the ones that know how to frequency slot. I don't have much sub-low going on because the kick drum needs all of that. I have lots of low midrange, though. Generally fits in with the guitars quite well. Our guitars are chunky sounding, but not super low boosted. They also don't have the overdrive dimed. Well, except for the guitarist who uses a fairly low-gain amp. It works.
I disagree with your count.
I stopped after someone disagreed with the pile-on. There are more. Sure only one pointed a finger directly but a slur is a slur.
