Playing out of key / phrasing

[woodsracer]

Intentional use of this can be really effective and dramatic during a solo, if done right it can be pretty captivating - I think because there's so much tension and then resolve when you come back. I have a few examples off the top of my head below, there are tons of these we could talk about, maybe post some cool ones? Over the years I've incorporated my version of this into my playing, but don't tend to get it right all the time. What I do is basically play a motif in key, then repeat that a half step sharp or flat, then resolve back to being in key, but it's not always easy to have it come out as a single, solid phrase. If my timing isn't quite right it can just sound bad and unintentional, more like a mistake than anything else. Can someone who is well versed in this type of playing help me with some methodology I can work on, and maybe a few tricks that can help me make things sound more polished?

Herbie does a ton of it here, but the Scofield solo is amazing (I set time to start of guitar solo):


A guy I don't know (Dario Chiazzolino) playing with Greg Spero, just found this recently:

 

[Bob_Ross]

the Scofield solo is amazing

Yeah, John Scofield provides a cornicopia of examples of using common chord-scales superimposed over uncommon harmonic fabrics...e.g., simple pentatonic runs that are based on a pentatonic scale in some other key than the current chord of the moment. Michael Brecker, Jan Hammer, Chick Corea, also do this sort of thing. George Russell used to refer to this type of playing as "Outward-Going Tonal Gravity" ...the trick is to make it sound like you're intentionally creating tension rather than just playing in the wrong key!

John McLaughlin has a wonderful approach to this kind of superimposition that always blows my mind when I hear it: He can sound like he's orbiting the key, playing lines that imply a tonal center practically by omission, playing above and below in ever-narrowing arcs without ever iterating the chord-scale of the moment. Fascinatingly engaging.

 

[woodsracer]

Great picture you painted there, Bob Ross. I guess the questions is what scales will work over what chords to provide this outward going tonal gravity, as it were? Interesting note on implying a tonal center by omission, definitely takes some musical genius to make that work, but when someone does it is really pretty special. Any direction you can offer in terms of specific things to work on?

 

[Whousedtoplay]

"Outward-Going Tonal Gravity"

Yes, it's a very nice (maybe, old/aging) concept.

From here:

Casa Valdez Studios: George Russell's 'Lydian Chromatic Concept'

"Here is another way to think of key centers (if you must) using this concept over a
ii-7/ V7/ Imaj/ progression.

Over a:
D-7 / G7 /Cmaj7 /

think:
D melodic-/ /Gmaj /

For example-
Over a C major chord, outward bound playing would be to start playing a C Lydian, then a go to C mixolydian, then C Phrygian, then C diminished, then D major, then F# Dorian.
The general idea is to slowly move to scales that have fewer and fewer notes in common with the chord you are playing over.
It's all about what George calls 'Tonal Gravity'. Every note or scale has it's own particular tonal gravity when played over any particular chord. Conventional Jazz harmony doesn't deal with, say how a G minor pentatonic sounds and where it wants to go to when played over an Eb sus4 b9 chord. This is unmapped territory as of yet."

 

[Bob_Ross]

what scales will work over what chords to provide this outward going tonal gravity, as it were?

Russell was pretty explicit in suggesting a hierarchy of scales that would yield increasing levels of outward going tonal gravity, and to summarize that (which is an essential component of his entire "Lydian Chromatic Concept Of Tonal Organization") would exceed the capacity of an internet forum post (!)

But the short answer is to analyze pitch class collections for two components:

1) - What does the collection by itself suggest in terms of any functional or directional tendencies? I.e., does (for example) a C major pentatonic scale suggest a tonal center? do chords built on that C major pentatonic scale have different degrees of tension, or imply resolution to other chords built on that collection?

and

2) - How do the individual notes of the collection when superimposed over another chord impact that chord's functions, or extensions, or qualities? I.e., if you play (again, for example) a C major pentatonic scale over a Gb7 chord, what have you done to the harmonic fabric?

 

[KevInDaBassment]

Victor Wooten's bass clinic he did with Anthony Wellington kinda covered this. I'm at work and can't find/post a clip of it, but it's a pretty famous one.

Some genres can be less forgiving of it, but if you are judicious in your approach with timing and dynamics...it can be the "wrong note" but sound right in the mix.

 

[mambo4]

What I do is basically play a motif in key, then repeat that a half step sharp or flat, then resolve back to being in key

try transposing the riff a minor 3rd up or down instead
works best over dom 7th chords (maybe min 7th)
I read it once in my more studious days
I'm not 100% clear on the theory justification for it
something diminished related I assume

I guess the questions is what scales will work over what chords to provide this outward going tonal gravity, as it were?

Beato has an explanation

 

[superiorpine]

The lead guitar player in a blues band I used to watch said he took whatever key it was, converted it to a major, and then played the solo in the minor second. Always sounded good to me. As you can tell, however, theory is not my strong suit

 

[Ralph Manak]

From the other day:



Note the emphasis on the ear rather than the theory (which for all practical purposes is the naming of things, followed by the declension, so to speak, of principles and why things work, or don't).

 

[ole Jason]

Check out some videos on Barry Harris' approach to using minor 6 lines over dominants.

 

[Watchootognbout]

Derryl Gabel has master the art of soloing over the diminished scale.

 

[Carl Hillman]

Intentional use of this can be really effective and dramatic during a solo, if done right it can be pretty captivating - I think because there's so much tension and then resolve when you come back. I have a few examples off the top of my head below, there are tons of these we could talk about, maybe post some cool ones? Over the years I've incorporated my version of this into my playing, but don't tend to get it right all the time. What I do is basically play a motif in key, then repeat that a half step sharp or flat, then resolve back to being in key, but it's not always easy to have it come out as a single, solid phrase. If my timing isn't quite right it can just sound bad and unintentional, more like a mistake than anything else. Can someone who is well versed in this type of playing help me with some methodology I can work on, and maybe a few tricks that can help me make things sound more polished?

Herbie does a ton of it here, but the Scofield solo is amazing (I set time to start of guitar solo):


A guy I don't know (Dario Chiazzolino) playing with Greg Spero, just found this recently:

"Out" playing, just like any inside harmonic sound you want to come out in your improv, needs to be in your ear and head, not just your fingers.

Increasingly remote chord substitutions and alternate pentatonic scales were Coltrane's "way in" to playing out.

Here's a Bb blues from 1960 where he's just beginning to develop a whole language of outside playing.

 

[edwinhurwitz]

I think maybe the first step is to stop thinking about it as being out of key. Players who do this are often more in the key (or playing stuff that resolves to the key) than it may appear on first listen.

Another more abstract thing to think about is to concentrate on the resolution rather than the starting place. I've noticed that a lot of rock musicians will start with something and then take that somewhere, but jazz musicians have a destination in mind and that gives them the freedom to play out in various ways that sound good once the destination is reached. There's lots of ways to do it, but landing on your feet is crucial.

 

[Pyrrho Epoche]

I like playing off key on solos also. Its done quite a bit in Brazilian and African music. "There are no wrong notes in jazz"



Freddie Hubbard was a master at this subtle off key bending. Start at about 1:00

 

[BassBrass]

well this is a bloody stupid premis, this video, but it's the best example I've heard recently, Mike Brecker is all over Coltrane's moving arpegios and it all works because he meets up with the key at the right time. Mike's brother Randy is still doing it (playing across chords in solos) on trumpet. Woody Shaw... The extreem of this is Ornett Coleman's Harmolodics. It only did minor harm. From Bern Nix: The harmony doesn’t dictate the direction, the melody does.

 

[BassBrass]

I like playing off key on solos also. Its done quite a bit in Brazilian and African music. "There are no wrong notes in jazz"



Freddie Hubbard was a master at this subtle off key bending. Start at about 1:0

Wow, that is late Freddy, right at the end, but still beautiful, that's his Yamaha Fluglehorn (that he played on these "funky" fusion albums, Creed Taylor being the best), so that is why he is more out of tune than usual, esp. when he tries to go high, but he's 99% following the changes. Early Freddy had licks and smears that were out of key like when he'd do octave flips going up chromatically. Cannonball Adderly did those things too.

 

[Pyrrho Epoche]

Wow, that is late Freddy, right at the end, but still beautiful, that's his Yamaha Fluglehorn (that he played on these "funky" fusion albums, Creed Taylor being the best), so that is why he is more out of tune than usual, esp. when he tries to go high, but he's 99% following the changes. Early Freddy had licks and smears that were out of key like when he'd do octave flips going up chromatically. Cannonball Adderly did those things too.

CTI is what got me into Brazilian/bossa styles in my early 20's. You hit it right on the nose. That later Hubbard crossover stuff was dope. I could go on and on.

Cheers

 

[Groove Master]

Intentional use of this can be really effective and dramatic during a solo, if done right it can be pretty captivating - I think because there's so much tension and then resolve when you come back. I have a few examples off the top of my head below, there are tons of these we could talk about, maybe post some cool ones? Over the years I've incorporated my version of this into my playing, but don't tend to get it right all the time. What I do is basically play a motif in key, then repeat that a half step sharp or flat, then resolve back to being in key, but it's not always easy to have it come out as a single, solid phrase. If my timing isn't quite right it can just sound bad and unintentional, more like a mistake than anything else. Can someone who is well versed in this type of playing help me with some methodology I can work on, and maybe a few tricks that can help me make things sound more polished?

Herbie does a ton of it here, but the Scofield solo is amazing (I set time to start of guitar solo):


A guy I don't know (Dario Chiazzolino) playing with Greg Spero, just found this recently:

Are you talking about bassline or soloing?
Because in a bassline it has to be done very carefully if so. In a solo you are free to play whatever you hear ! Very important task. It is too easy on a bass to modulate fingering patterns up and down but if you don't hear it, it will be difficult to land properly.

Start with main minor pentatonic scale over a one minor chord.
As an example if you play over a Cmin7 play the C min pentatonic, then the the G min P and the D min pentatonic. You climb the extensions of the minor this way. Very diatonic but you can mix all 3.
Then incorporate some new notes one a a time like the F min pentatonic then Bb.etc

You can explore the min6 pentatonic which is the major pentatonic but with a minor third. Very helpful also over a dominant chord. Cmin6= F7

 

[Groove Master]

Victor Wooten's bass clinic he did with Anthony Wellington kinda covered this. I'm at work and can't find/post a clip of it, but it's a pretty famous one.

Some genres can be less forgiving of it, but if you are judicious in your approach with timing and dynamics...it can be the "wrong note" but sound right in the mix.

I don't know if you talk about the one where he only plays the wrong notes over a chord. Very interesting because you then enter into the world of meaning what you play and how you play it. Even if it is all wrong it can right !!

 

[oren]

Adam Maness has a good video on one approach to playing outside the chord using a specific technique (moving minor pentatonic patterns by whole tones). The real content starts at about 5:30.
https://www.youtube.com/live/NQmXvu_E9wY?si=-SqwocgKWtiBXUcX