Double Bass Potential Ohio DB amp shootout/hang/axecheck/ belchfest

[Chris Fitzgerald]

So what's the word on the second VL108? It's possible, but I'm going to Cincy in a Civic hatchback.

 

[Uncletoad]

Nnah. Nnick still has the second one, anyway.

Ah. That's cool. I really wanted to play yer hybrid anyhow. Stupid AMT hasn't found it's way back yet either. I figured they'd turn it around faster. Maybe it'll show up tomorrow while we are there.

 

[tombowlus]

So what's the word on the second VL108? It's possible, but I'm going to Cincy in a Civic hatchback.

It might be nice to have, as two of them really open up, but I don't have room for even one more tiny little VL-108! I fit a lot in there, but my Audi does have its limitations, I guess.

But if it don't fit, it's no big deal, to me at least.

Tom.

 

[sejarus]

There's a bunch of us looking forward to hearing the results of the shootout/hang/axecheck/belchfest. Amidst all the hanging and belching, here's hoping somebody remembers to take a few notes.

 

[tombowlus]

There's a bunch of us looking forward to hearing the results of the shootout/hang/axecheck/belchfest. Amidst all the hanging and belching, here's hoping somebody remembers to take a few notes.

No worries, mate! Phil even had his laptop set up for taking notes, and Joe and I took photos (give us some time to host them).

Wow, what a great time! Major kudos to Phil for his generosity and legwork associated with hosting this event. Those of us who were able to make it, were treated quite well, thank you.

There were a number of "surprises" at this GTG, but to be honest, I'd kinda like to hear from the other guys before I start blabbin'.

Good times... good times...

Tom.

P.S.
Man, that Chris Fitzgerald cat can PLAY!!!

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Aw, shucks, Tom. I kinda thought everybody did a great job of playing their bag. I feel like a fumblefingers with the plank next to you guys!

I'll also wait for Phil to post his notes in his own particular...um...vernacular , but I'd like to thank him for hosting and providing alla the food and coffee and goodies; also thanks to you for schelpping all of that amazing gear all by yourself, and to robgrow for giving me a lift to and from Cincy.

And, not to spoil the surprises or anything, but special thanks to Joe Smithberger (sp?) for bringing the most amazing "plankesque" device I've ever played. Like I told my wife, I don't think I need one or anything, but that little Rob Allen "Mouse" almost made me rethink foregoing all slab playing for the rest of my life. In a word, WOW - what a buttery dream that little baby was! If I ever do get another slab, that'll be the one for sure.

Most importantly, I was (as usual) awed by what a great bunch of guys we had together, and what an easy, relaxed hang the afternoon was...certainly just what the doctor ordered for me. TB is an amazing resource, and we made great use of it today. And last, to anyone else who may be planning one of these little get togethers, my suggestion is to GO FOR IT. I wouldn't have missed it for anything.

 

[Joe Smithberger]

Yeah we had a great time checking out Tom's stuff

Actually the two NS basses and Chris's playing were the real stars of the show. Unlike on the slab side, we had a sonic standard to go by in the gorgeous acoustic tone of Phil's Cleveland and Chris's hybrid LaScala.

Now I just gotta find a Glockenklang 112.....

 

[tombowlus]

that little Rob Allen "Mouse" almost made me rethink foregoing all slab playing for the rest of my life. In a word, WOW - what a buttery dream that little baby was! If I ever do get another slab, that'll be the one for sure.

That Mouse certainly roared!

Man, what a way cool instrument. That thing was hypnotically addicting!

 

[Uncletoad]

Ok. I'm officially toast. Just got back from the gig and I'm beat. I'm pleased at how cool everyone is. It was really amazing to audition all that gear. I'll take a moment to coalesce my notes and get it out in a post shortly.

If you don't already know Chris is a monster player. I'm a ham fisted brute and play like a thug. His sense of harmony and fluid TP playing was stupid good. Especially when he stopped thinking and was just noodling. I wanted to just sit a watch him play all by himself.

More later...

 

[Uncletoad]

So lets get started.

It should be noted at the outset that Chris had the most outstanding belch of the day soon after chugging a soda. He switched from the Java much sooner than anyone else and we just couldn't catch up.

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That is a pic of Chris playing his Hybrid LaScala with a full circle and Amt through a focus and the following stuff.

• First he used his regular rig. VL208 on a pole. Very nice. Open, big round, clean, dry and accurate. An industry benchmark rig for sure.
• EA Wizzy was first. Generally it sounded ultra honky. Nasty actually. It especially hated the AMT mic.
• LDS 1.8 3 way with Neo drivers. Really amazing. Clean, not much low end but nice sounding. Well behaved and civilized. Great for a duo or drummerless gig. Not enough to get over the higher volume gigs by itself.
• EA VL108. Not really as nice as the LDS. It had a weird midrange spike to it but was still clean and dry.
• Razors Edge Bass 10. Boxy, sort of tubby. Sounds like an old polytone.
• Epiphani UL110. 500hx bump again boxy and hollow.
• Razors Edge Bass 12-400. Sounded really boxy. Actually sounded like sh-t. Not useful really.
• Bergantino EX112 A better sounding box than the last 3 but really boxy too.
• A brief detour back to the VL208. Everybody said “yea”. That sounds like a bass. Generally Chris sounded the best when we were changing cabinets with nothing plugged in and he was playing to fill the room with the actual bass. Nothing really ever sounded as good as the real bass. The 208 was close.
• Mark Bass 210. Well they are yellow. Nobody was sure what the hype was about. But they are yellow. It sounded much better on the floor. Still yellow on the floor. We tried to like that box but nobody did. Did I mention it was yellow?
• LDS 3way 308 Pretty nice really. Good high end. VL208 was still the king though with the little LDS 1x8 honorable mention.
• LDS 2way 308 Nicest LDS box even with some of the “boxy” sound.
• Glockenklang space deluxe. Hello. Nice box. Really smoking on the ground. Hmmn. Open, lots of low end.
• Focus as a preamp into the Bergantino IP112. Wow. Nice sound. Not aggressive at all in spite of the tweeter. Capable of being really loud and still sounding good. Very impressive.

So overall the VL208, the Bergantino IP112 and the Glockenklang boxes all got big raised eyebrows. The little LDS 1x8 gets the “little engine that could award”.

I was next up with my hammy hands and incessant playing of the same Blues riff over and over on my Cleveland with Animas. We used the Walter Woods for an amp with just a Fishman Full Circle and no preamp.

• LDS 1x8 sounded much bigger, although somewhat boxy and had some “chuffing” or bottoming out.
• LDS 3way 3x8 sounded very big with a unique hollowness to the mids. Decent but not all that.
• Wizzy. Midrange honk. Does not sound good. Uggh.
• Raezors Edge Bass 10. boxy, Polytonish. Yuck.
• LDS 2 way 3x8 not near as nice as the 3 way on this bass. Still boxy.
• Glockenklang Space Deluxe. Very big. Nice rich round tone.
• Epiphani UL-110 somewhat better with this bass but still sounds like crap.
• VL-108 Nah. Sounds like crap. Falls apart with the big Cleveland low end.
• Markbass 102P. Unremarkable. Sounded kind of yellow.
• Berg IP112. Huge lows. Tight. Sounded even better with the ------ preamp that will not be named. Awesome. Best so far.
• VL208. Big. Lots more mids. Not as much low end as the Berg IP112.

Tried several different combinations of the Amps and Cabs that we liked. The following were all nice but in different ways.

Acoustic Image Focus with the VL208. Preamp not to be named through the Berg IP112, Iamp 800 through the VL208. Woods through the Glockenklang. Woods through the VL208.

Overall I’d say the Focus with the VL208 and the Berg IP112 with the preamp not to be named had the best acoustic tones. The Gig performance of the WWU through the VL208 is also noteworthy as the midrange presence gives it some cut in a dense mix that I suspect the Berg wouldn’t have.

Slabs was a whole nuther thing.

We had a bunch of bases and tried a bunch of stuff. There really wasn’t as much time left to be as exhausting. The Stingray, the MTD, the 62, 63 precisions and the 69 jazz all sounded different. Interesting how different cabs sounded better with different basses. Some sounded better some sounded worse. Of course the Cleveland and the LaScala are much more alike than the MTD and a ’63 precision with Labella Flats.

Overall the Walter Woods with the Glockenklang had a sound we kept going back to. The Woods and the VL208 was right in there too. The Berg IP sounded great with everything with or without a preamp. An amazing thing.

Best of show goes to the Rob Allen Mouse. The 30” scale fretless that had everyone sounding like a Jaco clone. What a gas to play.

Summary:

I was contemplating what I heard as I was playing outside on a gig after we did the belching. I was left with several impressions about the stuff we tried. First, most of it sounded like crap. Nothing sounded as good as the basses themselves. Second the Focus sounds amazing. Its great for Double Bass for all the things it doesn’t have. It is unselfish and lets the bass be what it is. It has very little of it’s own voice. Third the Berg IP is outstanding. I don’t know that I’m going to rush out and buy it but it should be way up on anyone’s list. Fourth, the Walter Woods has a singular voice almost better for slab. I think it would trounce the AI in a really loud environment.(One of these days I am going to buy a Focus and do an on the gig shootout of those two with the DB). Fifth, The Glockenklang cabinet is worth buying. I could use it instead of the VL208 and not be upset about it. Sixth, the VL208 is the best bass cabinet for double bass. Really, the Glock was nice and the Berg was amazing but on a gig those mids are gold. Lastly the preamp to be named will be named and discussed in detail later after we all buy one before the prices go up from our talking about it.

Did I miss anything gents?

 

[tombowlus]

Did I miss anything gents?

Pretty much nailed it. Oh, did you mention what a wonder box the [preamp which shall not be named until Phil buys one] turned out to be? Wait... yup. You did. It wasn't yellow, but man did it make everything sound better!

Let me just add [again] what a pleasure it was to hang out with everyone today. That was a downright friendly group, and I really enjoyed meeting Chris, Bob and Joe, and hanging out with Phil again. What a great way to break up the work week!

A few personal preference comments, but after going back and forth numerous times, I felt like the IP112 was capturing just about everything that I loved about the VL-208, but then adding this amazing low end on top of that. By contrast, it made the VL-208 initially sound like it had more going on in the upper mids, but as I listened to it, I started to think that it was just the relative balance of lows to mids with the VL-208, and that the IP112 had all that going on in the mids and highs as well. I personally gave the IP112 the slight nod as my "standard" reference with upright (and electric), but despite all the competition, the Focus/Woods/iAMP into the VL-208 does remain EXTREMELY close to the top of the heap.

And I know you mentioned it already, but I have to throw some added emphasis on how killer that WWU/Glockenklang rig sounded when you were playing your old J-bass (right? or was that the P?). It was neck and neck with the IP112, which is a very impressive feat.

Regarding the LDS cabs, I have to say that this was the best that I have heard them sound. Very, very impressive with either NS upright. Not huge in the lows, but since we were using the variable high pass filter on the AI pretty universally, it didn't really matter so much.

Oh, and we gotta give some props to Paul's for putting out the best damn box lunch this side of... well, just the best!

Thanks again, Phil!

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

So lets get started.

It should be noted at the outset that Chris had the most outstanding belch of the day soon after chugging a soda. He switched from the Java much sooner than anyone else and we just couldn't catch up.

Invalid Link Removed

That is a pic of Chris playing his Hybrid LaScala with a full circle and Amt through a focus and the following stuff.

...and apparently, belching at the same time. What a pic...DOH!

• First he used his regular rig. VL208 on a pole. Very nice. Open, big round, clean, dry and accurate. An industry benchmark rig for sure.
  
• LDS 1.8 3 way with Neo drivers. Really amazing. Clean, not much low end but nice sounding. Well behaved and civilized. Great for a duo or drummerless gig. Not enough to get over the higher volume gigs by itself.
  
• Glockenklang space deluxe. Hello. Nice box. Really smoking on the ground. Hmmn. Open, lots of low end.
  
• Focus as a preamp into the Bergantino IP112. Wow. Nice sound. Not aggressive at all in spite of the tweeter. Capable of being really loud and still sounding good. Very impressive.

So overall the VL208, the Bergantino IP112 and the Glockenklang boxes all got big raised eyebrows. The little LDS 1x8 gets the “little engine that could award”.

Yup - these were my faves as well. The IP had the "twelveness" on the bottom end that I don't like as well as the 208...kinda like Pam Anderson's bosom: Kind of intriguing at first, but way bigger than nature intended. I bet with a little "EQ reduction surgery", I could carve out some of that "twelveness" that sounds so good on the planks from either the Berg or Glock boxes and be really happy with either. After all was said and done, I felt happy to leave with what I came with, but the good stuff listed above is in the same ballpark. If I find one of the little LDS cabinets up for sale cheap sometime, I might well grab one.

[*]Mark Bass 210. Well they are yellow. Nobody was sure what the hype was about. But they are yellow. It sounded much better on the floor. Still yellow on the floor. We tried to like that box but nobody did. Did I mention it was yellow?

You nailed it. It sounded extremely yellow, and yellow isn't anywhere near my favorite color.

I was next up with my hammy hands and incessant playing of the same Blues riff over and over on my Cleveland with Animas. We used the Walter Woods for an amp with just a Fishman Full Circle and no preamp.

Apropos of nothing, you guys all have big sturdy paws - a room of bass players if ever there was one! Joe in particular could probably palm a medicine ball if he wanted.

• Glockenklang Space Deluxe. Very big. Nice rich round tone.
  
• Berg IP112. Huge lows. Tight. Sounded even better with the ------ preamp that will not be named. Awesome. Best so far.
• VL208. Big. Lots more mids. Not as much low end as the Berg IP112.

Tried several different combinations of the Amps and Cabs that we liked. The following were all nice but in different ways.

Acoustic Image Focus with the VL208. Preamp not to be named through the Berg IP112, Iamp 800 through the VL208. Woods through the Glockenklang. Woods through the VL208.

Overall I’d say the Focus with the VL208 and the Berg IP112 with the preamp not to be named had the best acoustic tones. The Gig performance of the WWU through the VL208 is also noteworthy as the midrange presence gives it some cut in a dense mix that I suspect the Berg wouldn’t have.

Bingo. The Animas were interesting. Not my cuppa for general use, but if I was to play a real "old school" gig, they could be kind of fun. The Cleveland and the Glock were making eyes at each other when the Bergantino wasn't looking. Did you notice?

 

[Tbeers]

Wow, what an awesome thread! This is what I've been waiting for. This gives me a great feel for what I might look into as a new cabinet, if anything. Too bad you guys didn't have the LDS 2x8 3-way there. I should get myself to EA HQ and try out their NL-210, see if it appeals to me. Since I just bought a WWU, I should be done for amplifiers for a long, long time.

 

[seamonkey]

interesting results. Would have love to see measurements to see what "honky", "hollow", "yellow" actually translated into frequency charts. And if a little eq tweaking could change yellow into gold. But to tell you the truth, I'd probably tune out the amp nuances and just listen and enjoy the music.

 

[Jeremy Allen]

Thanks for the report, guys! That's really fascinating.
I can't believe the Wizzy tanked so badly, though; I just got one of the new models last week, and I haven't been able to wipe the smile off my face. It's the best cabinet I've ever used with a Walter Woods lo-power; there was some oddness when listening to it at ear-level in my living room, but in live situations it has tamed some really difficult rooms and given me a consistent and solid tone.
Nothing beats comparing apples to apples, side by side, though...

 

[Uncletoad]

interesting results. Would have love to see measurements to see what "honky", "hollow", "yellow" actually translated into frequency charts. And if a little eq tweaking could change yellow into gold. But to tell you the truth, I'd probably tune out the amp nuances and just listen and enjoy the music.

Honky is like a 500 to 700hz burp. Like a big one 6 to 9 db. Boxy was just that. Sounded like a speaker in a box, not a bass. Yellow was actually yellow. Not really a sound adjective. The thing is yellow in color which would be cool if it was but it's not.

The Animas were interesting. Not my cuppa for general use, but if I was to play a real "old school" gig, they could be kind of fun.

Yes I'm beginning to feel the same way. The thought you mentioned, that they only give up so much and then just absorb your attack, has been bugging me on gigs in the middle of the last set when everyone gets tired and starts getting louder and I got nothing left to dig into.

The Cleveland and the Glock were making eyes at each other when the Bergantino wasn't looking. Did you notice?

We had to separate them later before they had some mutant child. Its that German upbringing they share...

 

[tombowlus]

I can't believe the Wizzy tanked so badly, though; I just got one of the new models last week, and I haven't been able to wipe the smile off my face. It's the best cabinet I've ever used with a Walter Woods lo-power; there was some oddness when listening to it at ear-level in my living room, but in live situations it has tamed some really difficult rooms and given me a consistent and solid tone.

We did discuss the fact that the Wizzy has the kind of tone that probably sounds better in a live setting. And I have noticed that the Wizzy's voicing helps to make up for some deficiencies in the natural tone of my old Kay, but at least in that room, with those two NS basses (and even with electric bass), it didn't impress like some of the other cabs there (which were some killer competition, by the way).

Tom.

 

[Joe Smithberger]

Ok here are some more pics

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I am sure all of you will cringe when you see Chris's pickup mounting and string muting setup. It sounds great and is very "functional" but butt ugly. I love the stand mount cab and will definitely be stealing that idea.

In general, it was interesting to hear the amp differences. The WW Ultra had a presence in the upper mids that didn't sound very natural to my ear for DB with most of the cabs we had there. I don't know if this is typical with WW heads. I suspect that voice was intended for use with a more low-fi cab. Phil may be right about the real world and needing that to cut through. The Focus on the other hand sounded good with almost everything. I think we were also hearing the benefits of the high pass filters in the AI head. Especially for cabs that were either a little too small (LDS 1x8) or a little to big (boomy) the filter seemed to keep things under control. For slab, a pair of Wizzy's with the Focus was the best we heard them and, on the gig, would probably be a great electric setup.

Another amazing thing that has not been mentioned is how STUPID LOUD the IP112 is capable of getting. We never had it up past 1/4 and it was huge sounding.

I am sure Tom can supply a complete list of cabs, but we had three LDS cabs with 8's - the 1x8, a 2x8 three way, and a 3x8 2 way (I think). I thought the three way cabs had a nice open sound with the Focus. It wasn't as refined as the VL208, but still pretty nice. The little 1x8 three way (with the tweeter turned off) was a great monitor of DB and screams for a pole mount.

The Glock and IP112 both had big deep sounds but didn't cross into the boomy side of things. I think either one would be great for almost anything, especially if you could get them off the floor when needed.

I have a question for the technically minded. Does the cross over in a two or 3 way cab prevent the highest frequencies from getting to the woofer or does it just control low frequencies to the smaller drivers? I was wondering about the edge we heard in the EX112 and if that was a function of not having a tweeter to attenuate. Most of the cabs had the tweeters turned down of off except for the IP Berg which has a beautiful high frequency response.

 

[tombowlus]

I just love this shot!

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[Wilbyman]

Stewart UDP-1a and the IP112 was the shizz eh?

Tom's not crazy!!!

W