Question about pedal power and supply

[agedhorse]

I have a Pererson tuner that runs on a Lithuim-Ion battery. It’s charged via a USB port. You can remove the battery and just run it off USB power.

As a power source, USB can offer a wide range of performance and voltage waveforms. Some wall wart switchers don’t perform well. I like the idea of a regulated USB power supply with a proper ground.

Of course, most wall wart USB supplies are highly regulated switchers. Apple is a good example.

 

[fourstringburn]

I don't particularly care about your personal experience with noise, nor do I care to debate it with you.

I'm not a hobbies, nor a DIY tinkerer, Im an engineer who designs this stuff for a living and don't need a lesson on how it works. That's not the topic of this thread.

Fair enough, but engineers who design the stuff should listen to the people who use their products.

Many engineers are more interested in re-inventing the wheel which often falls short of the tried-and true.

The auto industry is a prime example of this and why there are so many recalls.

 

[agedhorse]

Fair enough, but engineers who design the stuff should listen to the people who use their products.

Many engineers are more interested in re-inventing the wheel which often falls short of the tried-and true.

The auto industry is a prime example of this and why there are so many recalls.

Some engineers do listen to their customers... kind of like the purpose of this thread.

Some engineers do re-invent the wheel, some design a better wheel and some fall flat on their faces. Comes down to the ability of the engineer and how well they understand the problem they are trying to solve.

There are a lot of reasons for the increased number of recalls in the auto industry, some are from poor designs but most are due to changing expectations for safety and reliability, the explosion of technology and the introduction of new, requested features that have not been incorporated before. Perhaps you don't remember the good 'ol days where bad things happened regularly to cars and it was just accepted as part oft he risk of driving? Today, cars are MUCH safer and the occupants are far more likely to survive a crash with only minor injuries.

 

[Wisebass]

In what passes for my world as a player an onboard battery still beats a passive bass pretty much all the time though

It' s the player! Not the battery!

greetings

Wise(b)ass

 

[rufus.K]

What's the best battery for metal?

 

[JimmyM]

Forgot to answer your other questions, Andy. I'll post my original answer to keep some continuity...

There have been a few discussions about pedals and pedalboards lately and it SEEMS as though most players aren't really using batteries anymore but instead are using either a stand alone power supply or a multi-output (and sometimes multi-voltage) power supply integrated into their pedalboard.

I use rechargeable batteries occasionally, like when I only need a pedal or two and don't feel like running a power supply. I also use an AC inverting rechargeable battery pack powering an MXR Iso Brick for my board. I get 6 hours out of it, which is usually plenty for my gigs.

These days, how important is it that a pedal operate from a 9V battery (acknowledging that some simply can not) and is it worth paying more for a pedal that can support battery operation (even if it means <20 hours of battery life)?

Since I use rechargeables, a battery would still be somewhat attractive to me if it only did 20 hours. All I really need for a gig is 4-5. What ISN'T attractive to me is having to unscrew the back of a pedal to pop in a battery. I greatly prefer battery compartments that are accessible through a door.

As a follow-up, how many of you guys would suggest that the days of using 9V batteries is coming to an end?

Well I run quite a few pedals on my board where it's impossible to squeeze a battery in and I don't mind it, as long as they're on my board. But I still like them for when I only need 2 or 3, so I'd say put it in if you can, if not, don't worry about it.

I'm looking for comments from a player's perspective, one who uses amps and cabinets and not somebody who mostly uses them at home with their studio.

That's me.

 

[beans-on-toast]

Of course, most wall wart USB supplies are highly regulated switchers. Apple is a good example.

There’s the good, the bad, and the ugly.

I like Apple products.

The only problem with their supplies is that they tend to break the sheathing close to the power connector with use. A bit more strain relief there and they last a lot longer. I apply a couple of centimeters of hot melt glue to shore up the weakness in the design.

 

[agedhorse]

There’s the good, the bad, and the ugly.

I like Apple products.

The only problem with their supplies is that they tend to break the sheathing close to the power connector with use. A bit more strain relief there and they last a lot longer. I apply a couple of centimeters of hot melt glue to shore up the weakness in the design.

I'm thinking of the USB 1 amp plug-in blocks, very well engineered product.

When designing a switcher for quiet EMC, there are several tricks that are used, things like smooth switching transitions with low overshoot and ringing, LC filtering on the output, high switching speeds resulting in very effective filtering of out of band noise, and in some cases the use of spread spectrum switching (which reduces the amplitude but increases the spread of the EMC).

With a line frequency supply, it's a lot more difficult to manage output ripple on the DC due to the lower frequencies involved. In fact, there are design tricks used in this type of supply as well, something that console designers learned early on in the development of both large and small mixing consoles.

 

[ThisBass]

I'll say it again, I never had noise introduced when using batteries!

I had (almost always) noise introduced when the schematic was designed to be preferably powered by a batterie.
btw please let me ask you a simple question did you ever measure by yourself any SNR numbers for your battery supllied equipment and did you ever measure SNR numbers for equipment which was designed for best SNR numbers possible?

 

[Dave W]

I've been using effects since the early 90's and almost never used batteries.

I started with individual 9V power supplies plugged into a power strip, then moved on to the more sophisticated bricks of today.

I want to put my board down, plug it right in, and be working right away with minimal fuss.

I like having the option of battery for my tuner, although my main tuner doesn't have the option. I do keep a TU-3 in my gig bag for emergencies, which was partly chosen as a backup because it can be powered by battery or adapter.

If you're designing something new, can you try and fit it under a Pedaltrain Metro or Nano series, but have more than 4-5 ports? And some high current outputs, and 18v operation on some?

 

[fourstringburn]

I had (almost always) noise introduced when the schematic was designed to be preferably powered by a batterie.
btw please let me ask you a simple question did you ever measure by yourself any SNR numbers for your battery supllied equipment and did you ever measure SNR numbers for equipment which was designed for best SNR numbers possible?

Only by ear. If I can hear it, than it's unacceptable.

 

[beans-on-toast]

I'm thinking of the USB 1 amp plug-in blocks, very well engineered product.

When designing a switcher for quiet EMC, there are several tricks that are used, things like smooth switching transitions with low overshoot and ringing, LC filtering on the output, high switching speeds resulting in very effective filtering of out of band noise, and in some cases the use of spread spectrum switching (which reduces the amplitude but increases the spread of the EMC).

With a line frequency supply, it's a lot more difficult to manage output ripple on the DC due to the lower frequencies involved. In fact, there are design tricks used in this type of supply as well, something that console designers learned early on in the development of both large and small mixing consoles.

There was a sealed brick switching power supply in an Apple II (6502 based) that I bought in 1978. They hired good companies to do it right. Years later they continued to use sealed box switching supplies in their tower products. The quality of the subsystems was always top notch. One reason why I use Apple products is the technical design is well thought out and the engineering is excellent. They are always ahead of the competition.


———————


It wasn’t that long ago that studio mixing desks had power supplies and computers that had to be located in a remote air conditioned machine room. Today, because subsystems are integrated together, multiple power supplies (with multiple line cords) are integrated into desks and overall operation is whisper quiet. They can have multiple supplies for the analogue electronics, supplies for digital electronics, displays, automated fader control, computers, ...

What’s helpful is that videos are available that help supplement the documentation.

SSL Duality Maintenance videos.

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An example of changing the analog power supplies on an SSL Duality. I can’t say that I like how they laid the TFT displays down on the console without a pad. Nor do I like how they over-sprayed the deoxit.

 

[Kriegs]

I use a Walrus Audio Phoenix Clean Power Supply with 15-output isolated outputs to power this monster:

The only time I used batteries was in my old fuzz pedal and I would try to keep different batteries at different charge levels to give me those distinct really broken up dying battery tones. But I don't even have to do that anymore thanks to this pedal and it's VariAC control:

So my vote is: No more batteries.

 

[Ender_rpm]

Once you go over the 2-3 pedal threshold, having a One Spot or daisy chaining out of a TU series or other tuner /power supply seems to be standard. I have one small board set up with a one spot (All analog, guitar), one with a cheapie multitap power supply off Amazon (all analog, Bass) and one BIG board with a Truetone CS12, guitar, multiple digital effects (Blue Sky, Flashback X4). I usually carry a back up for the analog boards, because they go to gigs with me and my guitar player. the CS12 ust get prayed over if ti leaves the house

 

[seamonkey]

I've always wondered why a phantom power standard never came up for pedals.

Maybe now induction could be an option. Less cables, and no funny connectors or polarity issues.

It's kind of nice just to lay the phone down to charge it.
These batteries today are better than ones in the past and can take and hold a charge and last through many charges.

 

[blubass]

It's been brought up a couple times already, but active circuits, wireless systems, and other various things on rigs rely on batteries.

I prefer not to run batteries in pedals, and could always benefit from a price decrease in pedals. Honestly though, what are we talking in cost savings? Total guess; 5-10 bucks as a consumer? Sometimes the cost savings or enclosure size reduction, isn't enough to justify what's being removed.

If I already have to carry 9v's for other pieces of gear, those then become insurance for pedals with batteries. Also, musicians tend to love vintage gear, which could necessitate them already needing batteries for existing pedals.

At the end of the day, NOT having a battery compartment would never prevent me from purchasing any pedal.

I remember several YT gear reviewers that have commented on pedals lacking battery compartments. I don't know how some of those passing comments translate to sales, however. Regardless of anyone's feelings about YT reviewers, it's a hot thing. Boss Katana sales comes to mind...

 

[agedhorse]

One thing about keeping a battery around as a "spare" or "just in case", there is a shelf life on batteries (it's longer now than in the past with the improvements in chemistries and packaging) whereas a spare wall wart power is not much more costly than a few of batteries and has essentially infinite shelf life.

 

[Al Kraft]

One thing about keeping a battery around as a "spare" or "just in case", there is a shelf life on batteries (it's longer now than in the past with the improvements in chemistries and packaging) whereas a spare wall wart power is not much more costly than a few of batteries and has essentially infinite shelf life.

I carry a spare 1Spot in my gig bag, but have never had to use it myself...although it did save a gig when a guitarist had a power supply issue.

 

[basso_profundo]

Weekend warrior here, playing dive bars and backyard parties - I don't use batteries for my pedal board, as I don't trust them and don't want the hassle. I used to use a 1 Spot wall wart (now a spare) and then moved to a 1Spot CS6 mounted under the board.

I would not be interested in paying more for a battery option on a pedal. I have a compact 20" board, but I still don't want to deal with making sure batteries are ready for gigs.

 

[PullThePlug]

I don't use batteries. I think they take up unnecessary real estate in pedals.

For example, the Tech21 DP-3x is so compact with SO much to offer. There's no option for a battery, which would have compromised the whole compact design. It fits in the gig bag with plenty of room to spare.