Question about pedal power and supply

[JimmyM]

I use rechargeable batteries occasionally, like when I only need a pedal or two and don't feel like running a power supply. I also use an AC inverting rechargeable battery pack powering an MXR Iso Brick for my board. I get 6 hours out of it, which is usually plenty for my gigs.

 

[fourstringburn]

I suspect this is an opinion based on a poorly designed, poorly built, cheap product rather than the type of product.

You didn't debate this below...

"Transformers, rectifiers, and inverters can introduce noise when used as a power source then filtering should be used to squelch it."

Fact is, any P/S can induce noise.

I made the comment about cheaply made Chinese electronics because they are flooding the market place and many are illegally bypassing the FCC regs being imported and sold in the US. Many are considered dirty because they aren't up to the FCC standards regarding RF emitting emissions to keep from causing interference even though many electronic devices have to accept interference themselves.

How many times have you seen this label on electronic devices?

This device complies with part 15 of the FCC Rules. Operation is subject to the following two conditions: (1) This device may not cause harmful interference, and (2) this device must accept any interference received, including interference that may cause undesired operation.

By the regulation, the FCC DoC certification mark is mandatory for devices classified under part 15 (IT equipment like computers, switched-mode power supplies, monitors etc., television receivers, cable system devices, low-power transmitters, un-licensed personal communication devices) and part 18 (industrial, scientific, and medical (ISM) devices that emit RF radiation) of the FCC regulations.

Certification stickers/stamps can be bogus so how can any imported electronic device be trusted? Only by taking the time to look up the device's ID number on the FCC database but how many people are going to do that?

I base many of my opinions on personal experiences and some facts.

I'll say it again, I never had noise introduced when using batteries!

 

[Mosfed]

Interesting and helpful responses!

As a follow-up, how many of you have had a pedal or bass damaged by a leaky battery?

Yes in the case of a pedal - twice in 30 years of playing so relatively infrequently. No for a bass as I use passive basses.

 

[scotch]

I cannot remember the last time I installed a battery in a pedal effect.

A stand alone desk tuner, yes. I use a battery for that. But for studio or performance use I want reliable wont-go-dead mid song power.

 

[beans-on-toast]

In some cases, battery vs regulated power supply depends on the fault tolerance of the design.

Some pedals require regulated power to get the most out of them. A dip can cause not only loss of headroom but also not so nice distortion in some preamps. Even a distortion pedal can turn unpleasant when the power is low. Some people want the power supply just right for a particular pedal.

There are regulated power supplies have pots to adjust the voltage to aid in that. But what about a dynamic power profile when the 9V battery supply is taxed.

I’ve wondered about having a dying battery simulator built into a distortion pedal. Seems it has been done: Dying Battery Pedal | Saturnworks Pedals. They don’t provide any details as to how they implement this. There are both simple and more elaborate ways to implement this.

 

[agedhorse]

You didn't debate this below...

"Transformers, rectifiers, and inverters can introduce noise when used as a power source then filtering should be used to squelch it."

Fact is, any P/S can induce noise.

I made the comment about cheaply made Chinese electronics because they are flooding the market place and many are illegally bypassing the FCC regs being imported and sold in the US. Many are considered dirty because they aren't up to the FCC standards regarding RF emitting emissions to keep from causing interference even though many electronic devices have to accept interference themselves.

How many times have you seen this label on electronic devices?

This device complies with part 15 of the FCC Rules. Operation is subject to the following two conditions: (1) This device may not cause harmful interference, and (2) this device must accept any interference received, including interference that may cause undesired operation.

By the regulation, the FCC DoC certification mark is mandatory for devices classified under part 15 (IT equipment like computers, switched-mode power supplies, monitors etc., television receivers, cable system devices, low-power transmitters, un-licensed personal communication devices) and part 18 (industrial, scientific, and medical (ISM) devices that emit RF radiation) of the FCC regulations.

Certification stickers/stamps can be bogus so how can any imported electronic device be trusted? Only by taking the time to look up the device's ID number on the FCC database but how many people are going to do that?

I base many of my opinions on personal experiences and some facts.

I'll say it again, I never had noise introduced when using batteries!

I don't particularly care about your personal experience with noise, nor do I care to debate it with you.

I'm not a hobbies, nor a DIY tinkerer, Im an engineer who designs this stuff for a living and don't need a lesson on how it works. That's not the topic of this thread.

 

[ofajen]

There have been a few discussions about pedals and pedalboards lately and it SEEMS as though most players aren't really using batteries anymore but instead are using either a stand alone power supply or a multi-output (and sometimes multi-voltage) power supply integrated into their pedalboard.

These days, how important is it that a pedal operate from a 9V battery (acknowledging that some simply can not) and is it worth paying more for a pedal that can support battery operation (even if it means <20 hours of battery life)?

As a follow-up, how many of you guys would suggest that the days of using 9V batteries is coming to an end?

I'm looking for comments from a player's perspective, one who uses amps and cabinets and not somebody who mostly uses them at home with their studio.

I do my own power supplies. Just give me a port I can find a connector for, and please not too expensive.

Otto

 

[ofajen]

Interesting and helpful responses!

As a follow-up, how many of you have had a pedal or bass damaged by a leaky battery?

Thankfully, no, but my beloved TR-606 did suffer a bit from some leaky C cells upon a time. It’s back in good form again, though, despite being, what, 35 years old?

Otto

 

[MultiScaleMale]

Interesting and helpful responses!

As a follow-up, how many of you have had a pedal or bass damaged by a leaky battery?

Most of the leaky batteries that I’ve had over the years are AA or AAA. I don’t think I’ve ever had a leaky 9V even though they’re just 6 AAAA batteries in series internally.

 

[Passinwind]

Interesting and helpful responses!

As a follow-up, how many of you have had a pedal or bass damaged by a leaky battery?

I've repaired plenty of pedals with battery related corrosion issues, including one old tuner of mine that I stopped using but forgot to remove the battery from. Never a bass though.

The only pedals I typically use are utility/band aid types (tuners, upright preamp/buffers, active DIs, EQ for sit-ins or open mikes, etc.). Not having a battery option for those would really diminish their usefulness for me.

 

[jthisdell]

Most of my pedals do not use batteries. My experience is that a cheap One Spot works well and a pedal power supply on a board is great, less stuff to plug and unplug.

 

[byacey]

There are regulated power supplies have pots to adjust the voltage to aid in that. But what about a dynamic power profile when the supply is taxed.

I’ve wondered about having a dying battery simulator built into a distortion pedal. Seems it has been done: Dying Battery Pedal | Saturnworks Pedals. They don’t provide any details as to how they implement this. There are both simple and more elaborate ways to implement this.

Any regulated supply worth it's salt should regulate tightly under all normal operating conditions of the equipment; even a simple 3 terminal regulator should be more than adequate for most any pedal. Certainly better than any 9 volt battery source to be sure.

Nine volt batteries are actually a pretty poor battery source in general, compared to AA, C or D cells, as the nine volts have low current capacity and high internal resistance that I believe increases as the cells diminish in voltage. To simulate a cell on the way out, it should be sufficient to lower the supply voltage and insert a series resistance. This simulation should be sufficient to put many device into LF oscillation and clipping.

 

[Stevorebob]

Saw a comment or two preferring top jacks. While it seems to be the TalkBass preference, it is not mine. I find it more difficult to use top jacks. (After my rant, I’ll say YMMV, so don’t freak on me yet. )

Sometimes there is not enough room for two pancake plugs (my preference) and a power plug on top. And unless there is a gap below the plugs, they have to be turned sideways, sometimes very difficult for two 1/4” plugs and a power plug.

Additionally, I find the top row difficult to arrange with top jacks no matter the plug type, because to protect the jacks in transport — especially the more-vulnerable plastic power jacks — the pedal and plugs need to be placed in inside the board perimeter and angled sideways. This plug arrangement can be a challenge and takes up too much space. I can squeeze in three rows of pedals (some small) with side jacks on a PT2, allowing many more pedals on the board for me.

Also the added side-to-side distance with side jacks facilitates accurate pedal selection.

Of course YMMV and all. (There. )

But, batteries, ugg! Except for the cleverly designed Boss boxes (ya gotta admit, for all Boss’s pedal flaws, their battery replacement is superb — but does it even matter if ya don’t use the stinking 9v things?) it’s a pain to rip a pedal off the Velcro on a tightly-arranged board just to change a battery or even test it. Like I said before, haven’t used batteries in pedals since the ‘80s.

 

[byacey]

I've repaired plenty of pedals with battery related corrosion issues, including one old tuner of mine that I stopped using but forgot to remove the battery from. Never a bass though.

The only pedals I typically use are utility/band aid types (tuners, upright preamp/buffers, active DIs, EQ for sit-ins or open mikes, etc.). Not having a battery option for those would really diminish their usefulness for me.

DIs and stage preamps definitely benefit from being battery powered when phantom isn't available. On occasion I find my piezo preamp / DI for violin running on battery power at some venues, sometimes just feeding a backline amp.

 

[Passinwind]

DIs and stage preamps definitely benefit from being battery powered when phantom isn't available. On occasion I find my piezo preamp / DI for violin running on battery power at some venues, sometimes just feeding a backline amp.

Yep. FWIW, I've spent the last two years designing nothing but battery powered widgets. Not my favorite thing at all, but great for pushing me into some useful new rabbit holes.

 

[byacey]

Yep. FWIW, I've spent the last two years designing nothing but battery powered widgets. Not my favorite thing at all, but great for pushing me into some useful new rabbit holes.

My view on batteries is that they should be avoided when at all possible, but they are still a necessary evil.

 

[Passinwind]

My view on batteries is that they should be avoided when at all possible, but they are still a necessary evil.

Same here. I worked very hard to minimize current draw in my onboard designs, after having done the Alembic style outboard bipolar power thing for many years. In what passes for my world as a player an onboard battery still beats a passive bass pretty much all the time though. Gotta pick your battles, as always!

 

[beans-on-toast]

Any regulated supply worth it's salt should regulate tightly under all normal operating conditions of the equipment; even a simple 3 terminal regulator should be more than adequate for most any pedal. Certainly better than any 9 volt battery source to be sure.

Nine volt batteries are actually a pretty poor battery source in general, compared to AA, C or D cells, as the nine volts have low current capacity and high internal resistance that I believe increases as the cells diminish in voltage. To simulate a cell on the way out, it should be sufficient to lower the supply voltage and insert a series resistance. This simulation should be sufficient to put many device into LF oscillation and clipping.

When I said power supply is taxed, I meant a 9V battery supply, not a regulated power supply. I edited my post to clarify.

 

[4stringsjack]

Interesting and helpful responses!

As a follow-up, how many of you have had a pedal or bass damaged by a leaky battery?

Me. If by "damaged" you mean full of that dead-battery whitish crusty stuff, then I've had at least one pedal and my Petersen Strobotuner damaged. I didn't think the batteries were in those devices for an overly long time and I always unplug pedals/basses when not in use. But, as previously mentioned, I don't use batteries in pedals any more.

 

[beans-on-toast]

I have a Pererson tuner that runs on a Lithuim-Ion battery. It’s charged via a USB port. You can remove the battery and just run it off USB power.

As a power source, USB can offer a wide range of performance and voltage waveforms. Some wall wart switchers don’t perform well. I like the idea of a regulated USB power supply with a proper ground.