Reasons behind split pickups in P-Bass setup

[scuzzy]

I'm in a quandry myself. I started out on a J then a P. Moved on to Ibanez for so long. I'm older and have access to more cash nowadays. I KNOW a P bass sound in a recording when I hear it. It is so distinctive. I'm feeling since in a few years I'm going to retire- I should get one more J and one more P. I would get the P first, because I can pretty much emulate the J with my Ibanez. But I've lately been missing the P sound, especially after watching Foreigner's live 40th anniversary concert with orchestra and choir. That bass player kicked arse!

One question for you old timers-- if I switched the P-bass neck for a J-bass, how much would it alter the sound?

not an old timer, but switching the neck wouldn't have a major overall effect on tone. it would still sound like a P, not a J. nut width matters little. dead spots and quality of neck may cause some differences, due to mass, weight, stiffness, quality of timbers. ymmv.

 

[micguy]

Gibon had a patent on humbuckers back then.

Yep pretty sure the split coil P pickup was a way for Leo to get around the patent. He also wired the pickups in the Jazz out of phase, so when both pickups are at equal volume you get hum cancelling.

That's absolutely what happened. Leo figured maybe if he put the halves of a humbucker in separate housings, Gibson would let it slide and not try to sue him over Seth Lover's patent on a humbucking pickup. Back then, they were apparently less litigious than today, and he got away with it.

 

[Fender_Bender]

Leo’s way around the Gibson patent. The short but wide individual coils contribute to a different sound than a jazz bass pickup, even humbucking versions, will have.

 

[stuntbass77]

if you were referring to my post, no. a single single-coil typically has a lot of bass. it doesn't need another pickup to give it booty. the pronounced treble gives some people the perception that it's weak in low end, but they aren't. there was a recent thread of a guy comparing a split P and a single-coil P, and the single P did in fact have a bit more booty, and a crisp treble. but they sounded remarkable similar. so much that differing string choice would likely cause confusion between the two.

I sorry I was comparing the single coil Jazz pickup to a split P. Yes, the 50’s style single coil Found in early P basses sound full enough too me. Maybe they are hotter or closer to the neck and thats why, or just my perception.

 

[stuntbass77]

Leo’s way around the Gibson patent. The short but wide individual coils contribute to a different sound than a jazz bass pickup, even humbucking versions, will have.

I have had the DP123 ( think that is what they were called ) pickups that are side by side humbuckers and they still had a different sound.

 

[devnulljp]

Pretty sure it was a way to avoid the patent on the humbucker pickup that Seth Lover held while still eliminating hum. Fender split the coil in two, and reverse wound one of them. Without the offset, the pickup would be too wide too. But mostly, to avoid patents.

 

[Tim Skaggs]

According to something I read very long ago, (I think it was in bass player magazine from sometime in the 90’s), Leo used single coil mandolin pickups with which to experiment and eventually develop his version of the two piece humbucker used in the P bass. Best I recall, the article jokingly said Leo had access to all the mandolin pickups he wanted and could have them wound however he wanted (he did own the production facility). After he got the results he was after, the P-bass pickup we know today was designed. I don’t recall if there was any mention of Leo trying to avoid patent infringement, it just said he was using two separate coils while experimenting, so the final design also had two separate coils.

 

[Killing Floor]

Isn't it because the split coil can have the pickup pole pieces follow the contour of the fingerboard radius unlike a single flat pickup?

A lot of boutique brands make J pickups for the radius of some fingerboards. Lindy Fralin calls them "Raised Centers" and it's an option when you order them. Plenty brands make split coil pickups that are shaped to a J Pickup enclosure. Not saying a J pup sounds sale as a P pup, just that the housing shape in a lot of cases is just from legacy.

 

[JimmyM]

I'm in a quandry myself. I started out on a J then a P. Moved on to Ibanez for so long. I'm older and have access to more cash nowadays. I KNOW a P bass sound in a recording when I hear it. It is so distinctive. I'm feeling since in a few years I'm going to retire- I should get one more J and one more P. I would get the P first, because I can pretty much emulate the J with my Ibanez. But I've lately been missing the P sound, especially after watching Foreigner's live 40th anniversary concert with orchestra and choir. That bass player kicked arse!

One question for you old timers-- if I switched the P-bass neck for a J-bass, how much would it alter the sound?

It wouldn't.

 

[Kro]

Isn't it because the split coil can have the pickup pole pieces follow the contour of the fingerboard radius unlike a single flat pickup?

Equal distance to the string doesn't equal equal volume though. It's way more complex than that, especially as it pertains to inner strings having their magnetic fields reinforced by more pole pieces under adjacent strings.

The whole Gibson thing is the right answer, but being able to have a humbucking pickup with more or less a single (kinda) narrow sampling area along the string (instead of two full sets ala musicman) is a big part of a Precision's signature tone, along with pickup placement, and any number of other factors with varying degrees of importance.

 

[blastoff]

even beyond following the radius of the finger board, it means you can adjust each strings output individually. its actually pretty ingenious.

 

[JeezyMcNuggles]

I think what he meant was that if you use a single coil narrow aperture pickup in the neck position vs split coil in the neck position. Yes, with both pickups on full a Jazz can have lots of bottom. If you only use the neck pickup it does sound thinner too me compared to a split coil in the same position.

Kinda. What I really meant was pickup types in general.

Single coils have a thin, shrill tone. You tame the high end with 250k pots. Humbuckers have less high end and a warm tone. You open them up with 500k pots. Splits coils also have less high end, and a very full rounded tone. "Vocal" if you would.

 

[JeezyMcNuggles]

if you were referring to my post, no. a single single-coil typically has a lot of bass. it doesn't need another pickup to give it booty. the pronounced treble gives some people the perception that it's weak in low end, but they aren't. there was a recent thread of a guy comparing a split P and a single-coil P, and the single P did in fact have a bit more booty, and a crisp treble. but they sounded remarkable similar. so much that differing string choice would likely cause confusion between the two.

They never sound similar. If they were in the same spot, it'd be more of a comparison. They're set closer to the neck than a split to give them more bottom end. But they lack everything in between. They're dull. By "thin" I don't mean "less bass" I mean less full. Less life. They're dull in comparison.

And humbuckers are usually wired in parallel. Thats why when you buy one it says, "best wired in parallel." And they are paired (a lot of times) with series switches to get different tones. Beef them up. Get both coils working together instead of as one.

 

[scuzzy]

They never sound similar.

Really? I think you are hearing too much with your eyes as opposed to your ears.

51 P vs 57 P (reissues) - Blind Test

 

[JeezyMcNuggles]

Really? I think you are hearing too much with your eyes as opposed to your ears.

51 P vs 57 P (reissues) - Blind Test

Those samples sound totally different. A lot of which is how they handle the input. I say sample A is the split and sample B is the single. Sample A breaks up a lot less and has a rounder tone. Sample B gets distorted as all hell (hotter), it also seems to have more high end to it (a little crisper).

 

[dbsfgyd1]

The difference is that it sounds like a P bass. If you listen to any song, by any group, since electric bass was invented, about 70% of the time, you'd be hearing a split pickup. Unlike a traditional humbucker in the neck (like on a gibson) or an enlarged one near the bridge (like on a musicman) a split coil pickup in the direct middle of the playing area gives you increased low end, slightly decreased high end, and a very extensive mid range. The positioning also captures a very certain harmonic range.

Traditional humbuckers give off a very honky midrange and kill the highs. They also decrease output.

Single coils lack mid range and low end, and therefore sound very thin. They have increased output, but also have a very shrill high end.

After building the Precision bass, Leo Fender decided that splitting the coil that he had in the bass gave it more of a "bass" tone. It then became the norm, the foundation, and the world renowned standard for electric bass. Yes, there are many different styles and setups now, but the fact still stands true that "a split coil in the sweet spot is an electric fretted bass guitar." The Precision bass. It is still the industry standard.

Spot on!

 

[dbsfgyd1]

I'm in a quandry myself. I started out on a J then a P. Moved on to Ibanez for so long. I'm older and have access to more cash nowadays. I KNOW a P bass sound in a recording when I hear it. It is so distinctive. I'm feeling since in a few years I'm going to retire- I should get one more J and one more P. I would get the P first, because I can pretty much emulate the J with my Ibanez. But I've lately been missing the P sound, especially after watching Foreigner's live 40th anniversary concert with orchestra and choir. That bass player kicked arse!

One question for you old timers-- if I switched the P-bass neck for a J-bass, how much would it alter the sound?

not at all

 

[JeezyMcNuggles]

I'm in a quandry myself. I started out on a J then a P. Moved on to Ibanez for so long. I'm older and have access to more cash nowadays. I KNOW a P bass sound in a recording when I hear it. It is so distinctive. I'm feeling since in a few years I'm going to retire- I should get one more J and one more P. I would get the P first, because I can pretty much emulate the J with my Ibanez. But I've lately been missing the P sound, especially after watching Foreigner's live 40th anniversary concert with orchestra and choir. That bass player kicked arse!

One question for you old timers-- if I switched the P-bass neck for a J-bass, how much would it alter the sound?

It wouldn't alter the sound. Not in the slightest.

 

[DAB]

There are two main mechanisms that will make a humbucker produce less treble than a single coil:

1. It will generally have higher inductance due to more windings and more permeable iron in the magnetic circuit. This will make the voltage of higher frequencies get stuck over the pickup instead of over the input resistor of the amp.

2. A humbucker will pick up a greater part of the string lengh. Higher harmonics of the string motion will have shorter wavelenghts and over a certain frequency, they will fit inside the magnetic window of the pickup and hence cancel out. That is because for every string fraction moving outwards, there is a fraction moving inwards that will cancel out the change in the magnetic field thru the coil. This will happen with singlecoils as well, but at higher frequencies. The sonic signature of the pickup due to this mechanism can not be fully emulated by eq settings.

The split coil principle will eliminate the second mechanism and therefore produce more of a single coil sound but with less hum.
The tonal balance of the instrument will also be affected, for instance, by pickup placement, electronics and choice of strings.

Where did I learn about this?
Praktische Infos zu Technik + Sound von Elektrogitarren + Elektrobässen für Spieler, Liebhaber, Sammler, Hersteller, Bastler, Freaks, ... - GitarrenElektronik.de - Home

 

[Funky Phantom]

A single coil or a split coil? A split coil can be a single coil. Fenders’ standard p-bass
pickup is a single coil. It’s a split single coil p-up. A Seymour Duncan Quarter Pounder is
a split dual coil p-up.

 

[bondibox]

And humbuckers are usually wired in parallel. Thats why when you buy one it says, "best wired in parallel."

All the humbuckers I've seen come with the North negative and South positive joined together to link the screw and lug in series.