Sorry ‘bout that…
I spent years modding and repairing tube guitar amps. Never had a reason to look at the schematic for a B-15. That’s interesting to know!
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Double Bass Red Eye Preamp
- Thread starter Pat Harris
- Start date
I spent years modding and repairing tube guitar amps. Never had a reason to look at the schematic for a B-15. That’s interesting to know!
I did from around 1980 to '86 or so albeit I did go to just the head and a 1x10 cab after a couple of years. With an unbuffered Underwood nothing else sounded even close to as good as that amp.
I lugged one around for several years in the '70s. It did sound great although it ate tubes and I finally retired it to a closet after it fell on my foot while unloading. I eventually sold it to a recording studio where I assume it still happily lives. The tube-vs-solid state debate reminds me of the gut-vs-steel one. Most of us who were given a choice back when the smaller, lighter stuff became readily available switched and never looked back. We left all the controversy to the guitar players.
After I started using a GK then the first SWR Baby Blue I didn’t use the B15 a lot but it was still my favorite sound and did still use it. The B15 is a great sounding amp I can completely understand someone choosing to haul to gigs. Mine got sold during the 9/11 layoff but if I still had it I’d still be using it sometimes.
OK, played a gig with a drummer who listens heavily to bass tone, and he heard what I heard: The Red Eye sounds worse straight out of the bass, and better after the Noble. We both liked it better than the Noble alone, disliked it by itself, and when preceded by the Noble it somehow made me play in a way that makes it physically less painful to play regarding the RH. I have no explanation, but that's how it was.
So I can either send it along to the next person, or keep it another week until my next gig. The RedEye is $225 at Gollihur and based on tonight I would probably buy the single channel version and figure out the complicated cabling later. or I could wait another week and be sure. Who is next on the list?
So I can either send it along to the next person, or keep it another week until my next gig. The RedEye is $225 at Gollihur and based on tonight I would probably buy the single channel version and figure out the complicated cabling later. or I could wait another week and be sure. Who is next on the list?
Interesting! What are you plugging the Noble into? An instrument input of an amp or an effects loop return? I think that just means the Red-Eye is a better match for that input...
I am not sure who is on the list but I would love to give it a go and A/B it with the Sarno Black Box. I don't think I would take it out on my gigs because they aren't good try things out type dates but I will make some thoughtful audio demos.
@crd It is interesting. When using only the Noble the best sound on the PJB BG-300 is into the FX return. But the Red Eye sounds better into the regular input, and as others have mentioned it responds really well to the EQ after the signal passes through it. Last night I used the low bass control to roll off some of the mud, and the resulting sound was really great.
The drummer I play with most often toured with Getz and Joe Henderson and Gary Burton in the late 70s- early 80s and is very vocal about bass tone and I usually agree with his take on things. He comes at it from a perspective of how the tone conveys time, and dislikes a thin or compressed sounding tone. We both agreed that:
- the red eye in front sounded more thin and compressed whether straight into the amp or through the noble
- the noble alone sounded better than the red eye alone, but had some artifacts that made it slightly less natural sounding
- the Noble into the red eye into the front of the amp sounded really great and even throughout all registers, capturing the fatness of the tone without the rubbery sound that so often accompanies it.
The part about my hands I can’t explain, but something about the envelope of the sound made me less likely to dig too deep and get those twinges of RH pain that result from that. No idea why, but it was real. It was a pretty hard hitting gig, but next Wednesday’s gig with the same drummer and the best sax player in town is completely wide open and often gets pretty loud, so it would be nice to put it through that test as well.
I didn’t touch the boost feature at all last night, but it would be cool to have that on tap for solos, especially with the RH issues I’ve been going through lately.
The drummer I play with most often toured with Getz and Joe Henderson and Gary Burton in the late 70s- early 80s and is very vocal about bass tone and I usually agree with his take on things. He comes at it from a perspective of how the tone conveys time, and dislikes a thin or compressed sounding tone. We both agreed that:
- the red eye in front sounded more thin and compressed whether straight into the amp or through the noble
- the noble alone sounded better than the red eye alone, but had some artifacts that made it slightly less natural sounding
- the Noble into the red eye into the front of the amp sounded really great and even throughout all registers, capturing the fatness of the tone without the rubbery sound that so often accompanies it.
The part about my hands I can’t explain, but something about the envelope of the sound made me less likely to dig too deep and get those twinges of RH pain that result from that. No idea why, but it was real. It was a pretty hard hitting gig, but next Wednesday’s gig with the same drummer and the best sax player in town is completely wide open and often gets pretty loud, so it would be nice to put it through that test as well.
I didn’t touch the boost feature at all last night, but it would be cool to have that on tap for solos, especially with the RH issues I’ve been going through lately.
BobDeRosa
Commercial User
- May 16, 2012
- 2,444
- 4,402
- Disclosures
- Owner, Tritone Jazz Fantasy Camps
Thanks for this, Chris, but are you saying that to achieve anywhere near the "sounded really great" results you did, we'd have to buy a Noble and a RedEye, at the combined cost of nearly $1400 new?
And more important, to the sensitive ear of a professional musician, the results of this signal purification are probably obvious. But do you think that in the mix, most audiences can discern a difference between 1) the Noble + RedEye, or 2) the Noble alone, or 3) the RedEye alone, or 4) nothing except a good amp, properly EQ-ed? In other words, might we be putting too fine a point on this pencil?
This is interesting because I have had a similar experience when I added the TC Electronics Body Rez into my chain. The way I tried to explained it was that it felt like my speakers were responding in real time to dynamics from my right hand, which makes it much easier to control volume without your tone falling off a cliff when you try to play quieter or louder. A smooth transition instead of peaks and valleys, mimicking how you control volume acoustically. I'm probably not describing it well enough, but it improved my live playing.
Stupid input/output impedance matching has me going crosseye’d. I’ve been trying all combinations of pedals and pres and it’s really hard for me to tell what’s going on unless I employ the loop pedal to A/B stuff without my acoustic tone and room sound coloring my perspective/opinion. So far the red-eye into Le Bass tube pre into low Z on AI amp gives me the most authentic “MBOL” sound. The tube seems to restore the ‘acousticness’ and right amount fingerboard/attack noise to the sound. What a dang rabbit hole… I’m reading this “war of art” book and I’m wondering if my gear-obsessed mind isn’t isn’t a primary function of my personal ‘resistance’.
I’m going to be teaching until late afternoon and will respond to Bob’s questions then, but the above sums up my feelings from last night really well.
I'm not Chris F but I feel the need to say you could spend $1400 and have wildly different results depending on the pick-up you are using and your taste. I will also say, everything to do with the bass is kind of expensive. I saved for a long time to get my WW's 15 years ago and never regretted it. I suddenly sounded "much better" to everyone I was playing with and audiences overnight.
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I still have my Walter Woods Ultra although regrettably I don't use it a lot. I think the 1 Meg load his amps provide, along with a great EQ section gives his amps
their signature sound. Unfortunately, getting one repaired is difficult in the best of times, when parts are available.
their signature sound. Unfortunately, getting one repaired is difficult in the best of times, when parts are available.
Just cause I like what Chis has to say generally (it's been a lot of years now) I tried the Black Box (Sarno) into the Redeye and vise versa and THAT combo (similar to the Noble in it's use of 12Ax7 type preamp tubes) does sound damn good with the BB first. My Sarno V8 with Octal tubes sounds better the other way round decidedly. What you gunna do?
No one is saying that all bass players need to run out and spend money on gear that they may or may not like or need. Most of the people who experiment here are just working out their own sonic issues to the best of their ability and sharing their insights.
I started playing with a GK 200MB and an Underwood (I hated it), a combo that Dave Holland still uses, or did until recently. His primary needs (I think) are to hear himself precisely at the expense of tone. Let the sound guy worry about that, Dave HAS to hear what he is doing in a certain way MBOL be damned. Many big venue players no matter what preamp or amp play thru 4x10 Hartke cabinets backline (LOUD and UGLY) no matter what because they are available and predictable and they can hear themselves on stage. A 4x10 to play jazz plus house support (sometimes with a GK sitting on top)...That is a lot of speaker to play upright jazz bass into.
What I do is rely 70% of the time on my amp for the totality and volume of my sound no matter the drummer (or lack of) the Venue (often loud and noisy or bad acoustics) or any other factors. I don't have a sound guy to listen and adjust and I don't have a 4x10 to blast over the top of the many stage monitors. So over the years I have taken an interest in getting a sound that does not suck for my purposes. People here play those kinds of gigs mostly.
How much money you spend (possibly serially, that is selling off what does not work and trying what does) is up to you. I used to play a precious old thin dark Tyrolean bass. It was a bitch to amplify, I jumped thru hoops trying to get it to work. Now I have a travel bass and an American Standard both of which just kill it on the bandstand thru amplification, mostly because they have expensive totally killing setups from my luthier, and tailored amplification systems. It cost some but I love doing gigs and hearing myself and playing effortlessly (or more in that direction) and if it cost some money, (which I don't have at, generally a bill per gig) it is totally worth it.
Anyway I think that general mind set is what goes on here, no one is trying to tell you you have to spend money on gear, people are just sharing what works for them, in case you might be interested.
No one is saying that all bass players need to run out and spend money on gear that they may or may not like or need. Most of the people who experiment here are just working out their own sonic issues to the best of their ability and sharing their insights.
I started playing with a GK 200MB and an Underwood (I hated it), a combo that Dave Holland still uses, or did until recently. His primary needs (I think) are to hear himself precisely at the expense of tone. Let the sound guy worry about that, Dave HAS to hear what he is doing in a certain way MBOL be damned. Many big venue players no matter what preamp or amp play thru 4x10 Hartke cabinets backline (LOUD and UGLY) no matter what because they are available and predictable and they can hear themselves on stage. A 4x10 to play jazz plus house support (sometimes with a GK sitting on top)...That is a lot of speaker to play upright jazz bass into.
What I do is rely 70% of the time on my amp for the totality and volume of my sound no matter the drummer (or lack of) the Venue (often loud and noisy or bad acoustics) or any other factors. I don't have a sound guy to listen and adjust and I don't have a 4x10 to blast over the top of the many stage monitors. So over the years I have taken an interest in getting a sound that does not suck for my purposes. People here play those kinds of gigs mostly.
How much money you spend (possibly serially, that is selling off what does not work and trying what does) is up to you. I used to play a precious old thin dark Tyrolean bass. It was a bitch to amplify, I jumped thru hoops trying to get it to work. Now I have a travel bass and an American Standard both of which just kill it on the bandstand thru amplification, mostly because they have expensive totally killing setups from my luthier, and tailored amplification systems. It cost some but I love doing gigs and hearing myself and playing effortlessly (or more in that direction) and if it cost some money, (which I don't have at, generally a bill per gig) it is totally worth it.
Anyway I think that general mind set is what goes on here, no one is trying to tell you you have to spend money on gear, people are just sharing what works for them, in case you might be interested.
The Redeye is the first piece of new gear I've gotten in quite a while and so far it seems to be doing what I want. I'm trying to use fewer add-ons than more and simplifying things as much as possible. I've worked with too many players who had too many issues with distracting equipment malfunctions to be one of them. I've been able to eliminate two boxes and resurrect one old pickup that has made my setup easier and better sounding to my ear. I'm not really an MBOL guy so am willing to sacrifice some of that for simple, easy, and functional. I want to go to the gig, play as well as I can, and go home. Whatever I can do to make that as satisfying and stress-free as possible is what I will do.
[QUOTE="flatback, post: 27021427, member: 42340"
No one is saying that all bass players need to run out and spend money on gear that they may or may not like or need. Most of the people who experiment here are just working out their own sonic issues to the best of their ability and sharing their insights.
I started playing with a GK 200MB and an Underwood (I hated it), a combo that Dave Holland still uses, or did until recently. His primary needs (I think) are to hear himself precisely at the expense of tone. Let the sound guy worry about that, Dave HAS to hear what he is doing in a certain way MBOL be damned. Many big venue players no matter what preamp or amp play thru 4x10 Hartke cabinets backline (LOUD and UGLY) no matter what because they are available and predictable and they can hear themselves on stage. A 4x10 to play jazz plus house support (sometimes with a GK sitting on top)...That is a lot of speaker to play upright jazz bass into.[/QUOTE]
We're of like minds here Piro. Gary Peacock used a very similar setup to Dave Holland a 4x10 run by his Walter Woods. I can't be certain, but I think what that setup does work like a oversized monitor and
puts sound out to the band and the bass player. It's not a sound I covet but evidently it works for them on stage. What the bass sounds like out in the house has very little to do with the onstage gear. Just my take
Using that rig in a smaller club produces a very mid range focused sound
No one is saying that all bass players need to run out and spend money on gear that they may or may not like or need. Most of the people who experiment here are just working out their own sonic issues to the best of their ability and sharing their insights.
I started playing with a GK 200MB and an Underwood (I hated it), a combo that Dave Holland still uses, or did until recently. His primary needs (I think) are to hear himself precisely at the expense of tone. Let the sound guy worry about that, Dave HAS to hear what he is doing in a certain way MBOL be damned. Many big venue players no matter what preamp or amp play thru 4x10 Hartke cabinets backline (LOUD and UGLY) no matter what because they are available and predictable and they can hear themselves on stage. A 4x10 to play jazz plus house support (sometimes with a GK sitting on top)...That is a lot of speaker to play upright jazz bass into.[/QUOTE]
We're of like minds here Piro. Gary Peacock used a very similar setup to Dave Holland a 4x10 run by his Walter Woods. I can't be certain, but I think what that setup does work like a oversized monitor and
puts sound out to the band and the bass player. It's not a sound I covet but evidently it works for them on stage. What the bass sounds like out in the house has very little to do with the onstage gear. Just my take
Using that rig in a smaller club produces a very mid range focused sound
Not at all! I was just reporting on what worked best with what I had on hand last night. I was happy to be able to do the test with my favorite drummer to give feedback, and happily I heard what he heard, although he described it differently.
I agree up to a point. But the wild card in all of this is how comfortable we are with our sound onstage, and by extension what it feels like to play with that sound. I don't think most audience members care that much about sound as long as the music is happening. But we as players definitely do, so if a piece of gear - be it a bass, or a certain type of strings, or a preamp/amp/magic black box etc. - makes us more comfortable, then I think we will play better because people tend to play better the more comfortable they are. And that, I think, is something that the audience will probably hear even if they don't care so much about the tone itself.
So putting these two answers together, in summary: I love the sound and feel of my bass when unamplified. The little box, last night in that particular configuration, brought that feeling closer to home when amplified than it would have been otherwise. It made the attack envelope more comfortable to me somehow. What was actually technically happening, I have no idea.
I don't think the names on the little black boxes really matters, especially since when I hand my bass to someone so they can sit in it always sounds completely different than it did when I was playing it. You or someone else might play that same setup and not vibe with it because the technique at the player end of the chain is different, or just because of personal preferences.
BobDeRosa
Commercial User
- May 16, 2012
- 2,444
- 4,402
- Disclosures
- Owner, Tritone Jazz Fantasy Camps
I'm playing this weekend with a leader who is much more picky than most about the sound of each instrument out front and the band as a whole. Since I'll be using what amounts to a new setup with the Redeye I'll be anxious to get his evaluation of the sound of the bass and how it works in the mix. I've used the rig on a couple of previous gigs and have been happy with what I heard but this will be the first time a set of ears I trust will give me feedback. We won't have any FOH so it will be totally from the stage and my amp which is not run through the small PA, so it should be a true test.
