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Double Bass Red Eye Preamp

#321
Okay, this will be a little bit of the blind leading the blind. Please anyone who sees anything inaccurate here please correct me.

JBarz said:
Now hear me out : would these findings imply that a tube (pre)amp maybe also has a variable output impedance?

I learned today that for some mystery reason I need the Fdeck HPF pre (s3) between the redeye and the Le Bass tube pre, otherwise there’s fuzzy distortion on the low end at low volumes. It’s redundant because my AI amp has a HPF, but I think I’ve got everything consistently behaving now. I’ve been in the manuals for all my gear today trying to match output/input impedance and pretend that it makes any sense to me outside of the relm of pseudoscience or magic. Pretty pleased I found a way that works for now, though. I read the Noble pre has the gainstage behind the tube so as to not influence the color, so I put my volume pedal behind the tube pre and that made a HUGE difference in controlling my pedal rig.

Nonsense.
Click to expand...

No :)
Some general information that may or may not be useful to you:

The best explanation I've heard of impedance is it's like the container of the current. To use plumbing as analogy, impedance is like the width of the pipe.

Also, pre-amps should have a low output impedance to properly load the power amp you are plugging into. Check out this video for reference:

(ignore the balanced vs unbalanced stuff...)
You're preamp's impedance should be much less than the power amp you are plugging into.
For a piezo pick-up the oppose it is true, you want to plug it into something with a higher impedance to properly load it.

Some common gain levels you see in audio from lowest to highest:
1. mic
2. instrument
3. line-level
4. speaker level

A DI takes an instrument level and lowers it to a mic level signal so you can send for instance your amp's signal to a mixing desk or front of house.

An instrument preamp will take your pick-up and usually raise it to line-level or instrument level. Line-level can drive a power amp. A power amp will output a gain that can drive speakers. Line-level into a preamp would normally clip the preamp unless for some reason it's made to see line-level. I'm not sure what the effects out of the Fire-eye's gain is but I bet it's instrument level. The Noble and Fire-eye have both a di function and a pre-amp function.

For the most part you want to avoid plugging one pre-amp into another. That's kind of a gain staging nightmare. Sometime it can sound good but it's usually something you want to avoid. I'm not familiar with the red-eye but I imagine it takes your piezo signal and raises the gain high enough to run an amp's preamp (the instrument in on your amp) when you take the audio out of the effects loop. So when you are going from the red-eye to the fdeck you are taking the signal's gain and lowering it to then again raise it back up again with the Le Bass. This doesn't make much sense but will work. Try the fire-eye into the fdeck into the instrument input of your amp. I bet that sounds good! Or just the Fire-eye direct into your amp's instrument in. I bet that also sounds good. I could be wrong and it's putting out line-level. If either of those clip, go into the effects loop of your amp. (The Fdeck series 3 doesn't add gain. It isn't really a pre-amp just a great HPF. I also find it a little strange the Fire-eye doesn't seem to have gain, just boost. I'm not sure if it is raising the piezo signal to instrument level or line-level. It could be it does both. I'm not able to tell from looking at the manual for it.)

What do you need the Le Bass tube pre-amp for? If your trying to get a more saturated sound I would give some sort of clean boost pedal a try after the Red-eye. They're a million reasons why a preamp into a preamp might distort so I can say exactly why this happening to you.

(I imagine the red-eye is able to handle higher gain no problem which is why Chris F is able to run the Noble into the red-eye. I don't know for sure but I imagine that's sounding good to him because the output of the Noble wasn't optimal for the power-amp/effects loop he was plugging into. It seems like the fire-eye is made to go into an amp's instrument (?) channel so when he plugs into his amp's instrument in he is getting better results. For some reason, I really like the Felix into some amp's instrument in's and other amps effects loops. I haven't yet paired it with a power-amp only but I have a feeling a well made bass power-amp is better than plugging into the effects loop of an amp; I dunno just a hunch. I do know the Felix sounds incredible straight into the line-in of my UAD Apollo sound card though.)
 
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#322
I think @Chris Fitzgerald should hold on to the Red-Eye for another gig. I for one would like to hear more of his thoughts. How it plays with a specific tube preamp isn't of much interest to me, though. I just want to know how it compares to going straight into the PJB (or any other amp); I think that is how it's meant to be used. If one is sandwiching a buffer pedal between two other preamps...well, I'll just say,"Good luck in Wonderland, Alice."
 
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#323
Chris Fitzgerald said:
I agree up to a point. But the wild card in all of this is how comfortable we are with our sound onstage, and by extension what it feels like to play with that sound. I don't think most audience members care that much about sound as long as the music is happening. But we as players definitely do, so if a piece of gear - be it a bass, or a certain type of strings, or a preamp/amp/magic black box etc. - makes us more comfortable, then I think we will play better because people tend to play better the more comfortable they are. And that, I think, is something that the audience will probably hear even if they don't care so much about the tone itself.
Click to expand...

^^^^ This! 100%.
 
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#324
bassically_eli said:
I think @Chris Fitzgerald should hold on to the Red-Eye for another gig. I for one would like to hear more of his thoughts. How it plays with a specific tube preamp isn't of much interest to me, though. I just want to know how it compares to going straight into the PJB (or any other amp); I think that is how it's meant to be used. If one is sandwiching a buffer pedal between two other preamps...well, I'll just say,"Good luck in Wonderland, Alice."
Click to expand...

I’m leaning that way if the next person in line doesn’t mind. But right now I’m to sure who the next person in line is. @flatback am I missing something obvious?

As to @bassically_eli ’s point/question, I don’t have an answer about what’s going on, but have been stewing over it a little. The best perspective I have on the situation at this point is that some processing devices sound better in the effects loop and others sound best up front. With my setup/bass/strings/pickup/amp etc., the best sound seems to be Noble into Redeye into the input of the PJB combo. This sort of makes the RedEye the FX loop in the chain in a strange way.

The one thing I haven’t A/B’d is the RedEye up front versus the Red Eye in the FX loop. For the sake of the trial, I’ll try that this weekend as well. The downside to doing it that way is that then the EQ on the amp is bypassed, but it would be interesting to see how the sound is different in any case.
 
#325
crd said:
Okay, this will be a little bit of the blind leading the blind. Please anyone who sees anything inaccurate here please correct me.



No :)
Some general information that may or may not be useful to you:

The best explanation I've heard of impedance is it's like the container of the current. To use plumbing as analogy, impedance is like the width of the pipe.

Also, pre-amps should have a low output impedance to properly load the power amp you are plugging into. Check out this video for reference:

(ignore the balanced vs unbalanced stuff...)
You're preamp's impedance should be much less than the power amp you are plugging into.
For a piezo pick-up the oppose it is true, you want to plug it into something with a higher impedance to properly load it.

Some common gain levels you see in audio from lowest to highest:
1. mic
2. instrument
3. line-level
4. speaker level

A DI takes an instrument level and lowers it to a mic level signal so you can send for instance your amp's signal to a mixing desk or front of house.

An instrument preamp will take your pick-up and usually raise it to line-level or instrument level. Line-level can drive a power amp. A power amp will output a gain that can drive speakers. Line-level into a preamp would normally clip the preamp unless for some reason it's made to see line-level. I'm not sure what the effects out of the Fire-eye's gain is but I bet it's instrument level. The Noble and Fire-eye have both a di function and a pre-amp function.

For the most part you want to avoid plugging one pre-amp into another. That's kind of a gain staging nightmare. Sometime it can sound good but it's usually something you want to avoid. I'm not familiar with the red-eye but I imagine it takes your piezo signal and raises the gain high enough to run an amp's preamp (the instrument in on your amp) when you take the audio out of the effects loop. So when you are going from the red-eye to the fdeck you are taking the signal's gain and lowering it to then again raise it back up again with the Le Bass. This doesn't make much sense but will work. Try the fire-eye into the fdeck into the instrument input of your amp. I bet that sounds good! Or just the Fire-eye direct into your amp's instrument in. I bet that also sounds good. I could be wrong and it's putting out line-level. If either of those clip, go into the effects loop of your amp. (The Fdeck series 3 doesn't add gain. It isn't really a pre-amp just a great HPF. I also find it a little strange the Fire-eye doesn't seem to have gain, just boost. I'm not sure if it is raising the piezo signal to instrument level or line-level. It could be it does both. I'm not able to tell from looking at the manual for it.)

What do you need the Le Bass tube pre-amp for? If your trying to get a more saturated sound I would give some sort of clean boost pedal a try after the Red-eye. They're a million reasons why a preamp into a preamp might distort so I can say exactly why this happening to you.

(I imagine the red-eye is able to handle higher gain no problem which is why Chris F is able to run the Noble into the red-eye. I don't know for sure but I imagine that's sounding good to him because the output of the Noble wasn't optimal for the power-amp/effects loop he was plugging into. It seems like the fire-eye is made to go into an amp's instrument (?) channel so when he plugs into his amp's instrument in he is getting better results. For some reason, I really like the Felix into some amp's instrument in's and other amps effects loops. I haven't yet paired it with a power-amp only but I have a feeling a well made bass power-amp is better than plugging into the effects loop of an amp; I dunno just a hunch. I do know the Felix sounds incredible straight into the line-in of my UAD Apollo sound card though.)
Click to expand...


thanks for taking the time to spell this out for me. I got a little embarrassed at my ignorance and deleted the post before bed, prior to reading your response, but I’m glad you saw it and cleared it up for me.

The Le Bass tube pre seems to make my tone sound less “electric”. There is more depth to the tone, more ‘air’, and it cleans up the attack to make it sound like ‘MBOL’. Without it, through the looper pedal (no acoustic tone present to confuse me ears), the tone sounds noticeably more electric and stale. Not a deal breaker, but since I’m running a pedal board and power for my looper and tuner anyway, it justifies the quest for the closest to that ‘ MBOL’ ideal. The redeye on the front end cleans up the attack of the piezo and evens the tone kinda like a very gentle compressor to my ears, but absolutely adds an element of unnatural grit to my sound that needs to be rounded out by that tube tone. I’m fine with using the HPF after the redeye as a buffer to make it work with the La Bass because it’s small and I’ve got the pedal board space available. Now that I got the rig all worked out, I might make a little demo with the next tune I learn sometime next week. I’m pretty pleased. Thanks again for your patience.
 
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#326
Jim Dombrowski said:
Yeah, but who owns one and would drag it to their upright gig?
Click to expand...
Ric Vice said:
I’m unfamiliar with what preamp you’re referring to but the Ampeg B-15 has three different input impedances all higher than 200k. The primary input on Channel 1 is 5.6 Meg Ohms while Channel 2 is 2.2 meg ohms. So there are exceptions.
Click to expand...

Looks like the later mid-seventies B15N is 5.6M both channels. Also, the B25B, same.
The only gizmo/doodad I have is an old Fishman pro EQ guitar version which I find to helps to match up

...and, I drag the B15 occasionally, just for fun.

Back to the Red Eye. I saw one in a shop called "Needful Things"...It gnaws at me! Thanks TB.
 
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#327
I used the Red-Eye on two totally different types of gigs over the weekend. The first was piano, bass and sax, fairly quiet,no PA. The leader, whose ears I trust, listened out front. The only tweak he suggested(only the R-E between pickup and amp)was a little mids boost, nothing major. It actually sounded a little boomy to me on stage, but he said not out front. Other than that, it seemed very good to me. It takes the "glassiness" out of the pickup and evens out the tone of the various registers. The second gig was with drums and guitar, a blues gig, pretty aggressive. I used the same setup but obviously much louder. I rolled the bass off slightly but otherwise kept the same EQ. It sounded more electric than the first gig, but still did the job with a minimum of adjustment other than volume. In both situations, the bass sounded natural enough that I knew what instrument I was playing and there were literally no problems with the setup. This thing seems so far to do exactly what I want: decent natural sound, no feedback, minimal extra gear, and no complications.
 
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#328
OK, played my old Wednesday night “Primal-scream-tear-in-the-time-space-continuum” trio gig for the first time since the pandemic hit last night. Sax, bass drums, kind of stoopid loud and often stoopid aggressive. Red Eye after the Noble as before. Same results as before.

I can’t even tell you what it does, but it somehow evens out the sound and makes the attack envelope feel more natural. Here’s the real kicker: after dealing with RH pain for the last 6 months, including a really scary feeling in the middle knuckle at some point on several gigs and a full on forearm cramp at the end of a gig with Tamir Hendelman, I’ve had none after the last two hits with the Red Eye while playing with the most aggressive drummer I know. I’d say that’s worth spending $200 or so on.

It’s going to require me to do a 2 unit pedal board kind of thing, and the red eye going after the Noble is way less convenient cablewise than it would be the other way around, but I’ll gain a boost feature for solos whenever it might be useful. I’ll give it a shot.

So thanks for letting me hold in to it an extra week. Who is next in line? I can package it up this weekend and send it on its way!
 
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#333
I'm not sure if I ever made it to the list but I would love A/B this with my Sarno black box. I don't think I will take it out on any gigs but I will make some audio files with it in January.
 
#334
Am I correct in reading that some of you are running a Redeye into another preamp and then into an additional HPF? For all of that effort and expense, it seems like I could just show up with a Felix and be done with it. Like Zoots, I usually bring my powered pedalboard with some extra doo-dahs, but I've been trying to find a simple solution, not a more complex one.....:banghead:

The reality is that last night in the middle of the second set with a full house, the banjo player and I were engaged in a bit of stage banter about how the entire audience was watching the attractive young singer and did not even notice we were on the stage...
 
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#335
I used my Red Eye straight into a Quilter BB800 with a Bergantino 1x12 last night. It sounded great for me and for the other bass player who used it. She has a nice pre-war American Standard with guts and an Underwood while my beater Czech laminate has dead Spirocores and an EAP. Other than the gain I'm not sure she even changed any of my settings. I don't see much reason to obsess further.
 
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#337
Ha, yeah, if I hadn't already have had an fdeck-eq pedal-di box setup I prob could have invested in a felix. I would love to hear a felix up against my setup, but I don't think that'll be happening any day soon financially. I was able to scrounge for the red eye, however, and it has taken over my hpf spot in the chain. I am still reaching for eq, but I think it's more that my ears are a bit done with the spiro sound, right now anyway.
 
#339
ooo me. I'm away from my rig from the 18 until the 27th but will put it through it's paces if I get it sometime this week. If now works better for basically_eli I'd be happy to trade spots with him.
 

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