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Rickenbacker's "secret"?

#41
Rickenbackerman said:
BTW @ Basshappy - Rick bridge pickups have always been bass-specific, as they have four pole pieces.
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That, and also pickups can't distort on their own. ... guitar overdrive is in the amp, not the guitar. High output pickups overdrive amps more easily, and the same is true for basses.

Also for sake of accuracy to the general thread readers, it's quite correct that one or more tone caps can help a bass to grind a bit on the loudest peaks. Ricks are one of very few basses with greater than one capacitor in the circuit which COULD contribute to this, but there can certainly be lots of factors in creating a grindy tone.

Imho and all that
 
#42
4DGeorge said:
I'll post some photos tomorrow. Using my phone to write this at the moment.

With the stock pickups (passive) the tone knob can only "filter out" or take away signal. The knobs are just potentiometers - a Y adaptor that can send the signal out through two paths either equally, more to one and less to the other, or fully just through one. As you roll the knob you send more signal through the capacitor side of the potentiometer. All a capacitor does is filter out lower frequencies (bass). Roll the knob to the other end and you're bypassing the capacitor and getting full signal to/from the pickup.

With the active EMG pickups i could actually boost different areas of the signal - as in amplifly it. This requires power and thus a 9v battery was installed too.
Click to expand...

Actually in a normal passive tone control like you described, if your pickup has a high q and therefore resonates at a particular frequency, which all good passive pickups do, then once you completely turn the tone control all the way down the circuit actually changes from a shunt for the highs to a capacitance increase of the main signal which effectively returns the pickup to its default boosted treble resonance operation but with the resonance frequency lowered significantly by the addition of the capacitor.

So yes, the 4001 and 4003 have standard passive tone controls which, like on any fender bass, increase the lower frequencies when turned down all the way
 
#43
dkelley said:
Actually in a normal passive tone control like you described, if your pickup has a high q and therefore resonates at a particular frequency, which all good passive pickups do, then once you completely turn the tone control all the way down the circuit actually changes from a shunt for the highs to a capacitance increase of the main signal which effectively returns the pickup to its default boosted treble resonance operation but with the resonance frequency lowered significantly by the addition of the capacitor.

So yes, the 4001 and 4003 have standard passive tone controls which, like on any fender bass, increase the lower frequencies when turned down all the way
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You are correct.
I was, however, wanting to not confuse people by using the term "boosted" or other terms only correctly appropriate for active electronics. With passive electronics, the capacitors, coils, potentiometers (POTs) can only "filter out" or otherwise "take away" signal properties. I know it's splitting hairs, but once a player understands this, my observation (or perception) is they usually have much better results with their equipment and getting things to work the way they want.
 
#44
Rickenbackerman said:
BTW..... - Rick bridge pickups have always been bass-specific, as they have four pole pieces.
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Really? Whatever.........................................................

I had this Rick bass for 38 years and never realized that! :eyebrow:

Jeff-1200_0130.jpg
 
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#46
this thread has me missing my last Rick, a 76 (i believe 4001 )I bought from a keyboardist. Prior to that I had a black, late 90's one, sounded pretty bad to me, but the 76 one was brilliant sounding, cut through everything without using a pick.
. Both very different sounds, if I got one again, it would definitely be an older one
 
#48
I think part of the "growl" is also the scale length. 33 1/4? Possibly decreasing the string tension just a little, making the strings flop around on the frets a bit more compared to Fender or standard 34 inch basses. I think...It's probably a little bit of everything everybody posted. Sum of the parts.
 
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#50
Rickenbackerman said:
BTW @ Basshappy - Rick bridge pickups have always been bass-specific, as they have four pole pieces.
Click to expand...

I wash hoping someone else would chime in on this, but since Jeff Scott hasn't quite driven the point home, I may as well:

The ONLY difference between Rick guitar Hi-Gains and bass Hi-Gains is the number of poles - same materials, number of windings, impedance, etc. They're voiced identically, so calling them guitar pickups is actually not far off the mark.
 
#51
Further, on the subject of pickups "overdriving," my understanding of electronics is rudimentary at best, but isn't any magnetic circuit capable of only a certain amount of inductance, and couldn't a signal "clipped" at this value when generated by the pickup be considered "overdriven"?
 
#52
The comparison I was making between classic rock and walking bass lines in big band music as follows: think of Smoke in the Water, with the bass playing in octave/unison with the guitars. Also, think of those block chords in Pinball Wizard, etc. Generally speaking (yes, always exceptions) in this type of rock, phrases are usually neatly grouped (2 or 4) & downbeats are almost invariably hard & completely unsuppressed. With the bass supporting the chords in such a matter, he can still fill in, or "roll" from one chord to another, but structurally & texturally there's a certain level of homogeneity involved. The point is that a strong punchy sound in the bass helps drive things & provide a solid foundation.

Now, think of Four Brothers by Woody Herman. The walking bass lines are a little more separate from the highly rapid unfolding melody played in block harmonies by the sax section, with syncopations strongly accented by the brass & drums. It's more fluid & stratified. I referred to this earlier as "almost contrapuntal". Think of the High Baroque! Think of all those movements from cantatas, suites (orchestral or keyboard) by Bach that have lilting or bright walking bass lines. Think of arias or movements from Handel's operas, oratorios or concerti that are supported by walking bass. (Arias technically fit a definition of homophony--melody over chordal accompaniment--but the presence of a walking bass certainly puts it a step closer to polyphony.)

When a musicologist refers to Mahler's Eighth Symphony as "polyphonic" again, he is making a comparison to other works, say, Brahms' Tragic Overture, or Mahler's earlier Symphonies 1-4, which do have counterpoint and are texturally stratified, but far less so.

My undergraduate studies were largely in musicology, but my degrees were in orchestral conducting.
 
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#53
dkelley said:
Good post.... but you might want to look up the definitions of polyphony etc :-). Still I get your descriptions even if the terms are made up :-).

Although I guess the way I treat my collection of basses could be termed polygamy using the same logic lol

Ricks are great but unusual instruments for sure
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I am not "making up terms".

Homophony is a frequently used musicological term to describe a homogeneous musical texture. Also, melody over chordal accompaniment---nothing more homophonic than rock!

Conversely, polyphony means more heterogeneous, stratified & contrapuntal in musical texture. Relatively speaking, syncopated swing music over a light independent walking bass line IS a little more polyphonic than Smoke on the Water & all that other classic rock that I can do without.

Read post 51. I forgot to quote your post there.
 
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#54
dkelley said:
That, and also pickups can't distort on their own. ... guitar overdrive is in the amp, not the guitar. High output pickups overdrive amps more easily, and the same is true for basses.

Also for sake of accuracy to the general thread readers, it's quite correct that one or more tone caps can help a bass to grind a bit on the loudest peaks. Ricks are one of very few basses with greater than one capacitor in the circuit which COULD contribute to this, but there can certainly be lots of factors in creating a grindy tone.

Imho and all that
Click to expand...

Hello DKelley

You seem to be a bit of a Rickenbacker "expert". Kudos on that! I haven't even played one since 1977. Fashioned a mahogany pick guard for mine, couldn't stand to see that beautiful wood covered up with cheap plastic.

Rick%20Rick.jpg


Two things to note. One, the rumor in the late seventies was that it was a guitar pickup. Of course they reconfigured it for four poles instead of six. My good friend Dale Newman who just retired from the Genesis organization for over 40 years also worked for Steve Howe on the first US Yes tour in the early seventies. It was Chris Squire who told him about the pickup. Of course, this is why it is a rumor. Chris certainly might not have known. Sorry I was not clear - the rumor was that it was a guitar pickup reconfigured with four poles.

The other thing is - I have no capacitor on my Rick pickup in PRS #11, haven't since I took it out of the Rick and it breaks up like a banshee. Yes, it distorts, overloads, call it what you might. Have no idea if the pickup or the amp is causing the barking, but bark and grunt it does. I play extremely hard with a pick and that might be part of what makes it overload.

Mine doesn't sound quite like any of yours at all now, as Paul Reed Smith rewound it for me to his exacting specs. Even if he wouldn't have I have no idea if Rickenbacker even uses the same treble pickups they were using in 1975. I simply don't know. It's still got the Ric character, but he leveled off some of the peaks and accented different frequencies.

Rick Pickup.jpg


No offense to anyone here, but my Rick never had an ounce of what I would call typical P or J "growl". It was round and warm and full and rich and when you switched on the treble pickup you added in incredibly pleasant mildly distorted grunt and bark. Of course, all of these terms are incredibly subjective - one man's bark is another man's growl and all of that. Ultimately if we could describe the instruments we play perfectly with words, there wouldn't be nearly as much reason to PLAY them.

IMHO, YMMV and all that.

BassHappy
www.innertainment.net
 
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#55
Yeah, they're not a Stingray, so growl is entirely a subjective term.
J and even P basses growl differently as well.

To me, a Rick's growl is a combination of the pickup's tone and the way the string vibration resonates and decays on sustained notes, most prevalent on open strings.
Maybe more of a snarl... :)
 
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#56
pickles said:
They are neck though maple body maple neck basses much like another growl monster ... the Spector NS2.
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I just got an NS-2 (WITH shaved neck / more like my 97 Ric) and the Spector is head-and-shoulders above the Ric for me, but that's why I bought the NS-2! I wanted a bass that "sounds like Rickenbacker and MusicMan had a lovechild"... and brotha, I think I found just what I've been looking for!!!! :D
 
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#57
Pudge Fish said:
I just got an NS-2 (WITH shaved neck / more like my 97 Ric) and the Spector is head-and-shoulders above the Ric for me, but that's why I bought the NS-2! I wanted a bass that "sounds like Rickenbacker and MusicMan had a lovechild"... and brotha, I think I found just what I've been looking for!!!! :D
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They for sure share a few chromosomes, but I would never say one was hands down better than the other. They are both classics.
 
#58
lovethegrowl said:
OK, let me get this straight. The 4003s (which I haven't heard) are beefier sounding than the 4001s because of a cap, which is bypassable. The improvement isn't the result of a significant upgrade in design or materials? Say, going from ceramic to Alnico for example? You're telling me just a simple bypass would've beefed up the sound?
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The difference in the sound of the Ric with the capacitor mod is HUGE! Yes - there's more low end but every part of the spectrum just sounds better. It could be argued that the cap is causing some phasing issues. If you want the growl, the best ways to get it are to put the capacitor mod in and to use RotoSound strings. They don't last very long but they sound good while they're fresh
 
#59
BassHappy said:
The word on the street at that time - and I have NO IDEA if this was true or not - is that the bridge pickup on the 4001 basses was actually a Rickenbacker guitar pickup and when you laid into it hard with a pick it would slightly overload and the distortion is what caused that crunch.
BassHappy
Click to expand...

All Rickenbacker pickups are guitar pickups ... the horseshoe, the high gain, the toaster, and the humbuckers.

Don't be fooled by the number of pole pieces ... inside they are all guitar pickups.
 
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