Rig for ultra low notes around 20 hertz

[agedhorse]

Why do they do it? Because the added impact is worth it.

or the client believes it is...

Done well it can be great, but done poorly (which is unfortunately often the case, it can detract from the rest of the band and mix.

 

[micguy]

or the client believes it is...

Done well it can be great, but done poorly (which is unfortunately often the case, it can detract from the rest of the band and mix.

Yes, getting the different parts of a big sound system to work together is part of making it not suck, and there are lots of things that have to be done right to make it work. One of those is getting the subs to work well with the rest of the system. A good tour should have a system engineer capable of doing this. A good venue will hire that setup out, as it's only done once. If you're at the local pub, the subs probably weren't set up well....and there are probably other things wrong with the system's setup as well.

 

[FullumMusic]

The fundamental is not as fundamental as you may think

A good bass guitar signal that is audible, articulate and musically understandable
is NOT going to arise form the chunk of the EQ spectrum below 100 Hz
It is not a strong fundamental that makes a good bass signal, but the upper harmonics.

For me a bump around 300-500 hz sound like "Phat bass" - that huge Reggae tone
others prefer higher mids for their "good" bass signal

It would be much more wise to play a bass through a graphic EQ
and use your ears to find what frequency actually sounds like "more bass"
you may be surprised at how far above the fundamental the "bassyness" shows up

This gets trotted out every time the subject of reproducing fundamentals comes up. There is actual research (done in the early telephone and military radio days) that led people to realize that, to get good intelligibility, you didn't have to reproduce the speech fundamentals - 300 Hz is OK for that. But it isn't natural sounding, and for a long conversation (a one hour meeting), having at least 100Hz reproduction for speech is a very good idea.

When it comes to music, yes, you can play a 4 string bass through a bass cab that doesn't reproduce the low E fundamental well, and it'll sound "OK" - An SVT (and pretty much every other bass cab on the market) does that. However, it's not as impactful as a rig that actually reproduces the low notes' fundamentals. If you get a chance to play a 5 or 6 string bass through a rig that reproduces 30 Hz well (I get to do that on a regular basis), you 'll quickly realize that having a well reproduced fundamental is a VERY good thing.

Big Tours have line array main speaker rigs that go down to 60 Hz, no problem. But they all carry subs that go down to 30 Hz - why? If you're playing the low B, the mains can do every part of the signal but the fundamental - is it worth it? They spend a LOT of money to rent, carry, set up, and drive those speakers - there is considerable expense necessary to reproduce that fundamental. Why do they do it? Because the added impact is worth it.

I'm with @micguy on this one. Not just as a bassist but as a fan of music, a sound engineer, and someone who works in music technology. Yes, you don't have to reproduce the fundamental to "hear" the fundamental based on your brain's computation of the harmonics you're hearing.

But hearing your brain's composite of a fundamental frequency is not the same as shaking the room and everyone in it with an actual low frequencies. If i pulled the fundamental frequencies down on my bass, bass synths, and 808s in the dance music and some hip hop i produce, the dance floor would die. They don't put subs in dance clubs and car trunks because people like the sound of a bass's midrange. They put subs in so people can feel the bass and kick.

Now, reproducing notes down to 20Hz from a physical stringed instrument is tough. A synth can make a near-perfect Sine wave, which will probably push the subs better than any other shape. But still, on my 4 or 5 string basses, i want A LOT of fundamental because i want the dance floor to feel me. It's not a choice everyone wants and it's not for every type of music. But it's still a valid option, especially with the subs attached to PAs these days.

 

[micguy]

They don't put subs in dance clubs and car trunks because people like the sound of a bass's midrange. They put subs in so people can feel the bass and kick.

If your band wants to play all your gigs in a car, there is good news. The cabin of a car is much smaller than a wavelength at 20Hz - you don't propagate waves in a car at low frequencies, you simply pressurize the thing (assuming no big leaks). Like headphones or earbuds (which are very small spaces), as long as you have a good seal, it's actually quite easy to get good low frequency response down to very low frequencies in a small space like a car. The guys that make the boom boom cars, of course, do it to ridiculous overkill, but there is no advanced Physics necessary to get good, reasonably loud sound in a car - 20 Hz isn't tough to do in that environment.

The dance club is harder. Much harder.

 

[FullumMusic]

If your band wants to play all your gigs in a car, there is good news. The cabin of a car is much smaller than a wavelength at 20Hz - you don't propagate waves in a car at low frequencies, you simply pressurize the thing (assuming no big leaks). Like headphones or earbuds (which are very small spaces), as long as you have a good seal, it's actually quite easy to get good low frequency response down to very low frequencies in a small space like a car. The guys that make the boom boom cars, of course, do it to ridiculous overkill, but there is no advanced Physics necessary to get good, reasonably loud sound in a car - 20 Hz isn't tough to do in that environment.

The dance club is harder. Much harder.

Right. My point wasn't how hard or easy it is to create the sub/fundamental frequencies in cars or clubs, or what physical phenomena is creating them. My point is, people always try to dismiss getting those low notes or fundamental frequencies because our brains will fill in the blanks and let us hear them, except it's not about hearing them. It's about feeling them, and you can't feel them without reproducing them. It's not a statement on how those low fundamentals are created. It's that people put subs in clubs and cars so they CAN feel them because producing the fundamental does matter, no matter how much our brain will fill in the blank without it.

 

[GTx2]

I don't understand the application that would require this........what am I missing?

 

[Engle]

This gets trotted out every time the subject of reproducing fundamentals comes up. There is actual research (done in the early telephone and military radio days) that led people to realize that, to get good intelligibility, you didn't have to reproduce the speech fundamentals - 300 Hz is OK for that. But it isn't natural sounding, and for a long conversation (a one hour meeting), having at least 100Hz reproduction for speech is a very good idea.

When it comes to music, yes, you can play a 4 string bass through a bass cab that doesn't reproduce the low E fundamental well, and it'll sound "OK" - An SVT (and pretty much every other bass cab on the market) does that. However, it's not as impactful as a rig that actually reproduces the low notes' fundamentals. If you get a chance to play a 5 or 6 string bass through a rig that reproduces 30 Hz well (I get to do that on a regular basis), you 'll quickly realize that having a well reproduced fundamental is a VERY good thing.

Big Tours have line array main speaker rigs that go down to 60 Hz, no problem. But they all carry subs that go down to 30 Hz - why? If you're playing the low B, the mains can do every part of the signal but the fundamental - is it worth it? They spend a LOT of money to rent, carry, set up, and drive those speakers - there is considerable expense necessary to reproduce that fundamental. Why do they do it? Because the added impact is worth it.

I get the dramatic impact, but I wish they wouldn't blast those fundamentals at big shows.

 

[micguy]

Right. My point wasn't how hard or easy it is to create the sub/fundamental frequencies in cars or clubs, or what physical phenomena is creating them. My point is, people always try to dismiss getting those low notes or fundamental frequencies because our brains will fill in the blanks and let us hear them, except it's not about hearing them. It's about feeling them, and you can't feel them without reproducing them. It's not a statement on how those low fundamentals are created. It's that people put subs in clubs and cars so they CAN feel them because producing the fundamental does matter, no matter how much our brain will fill in the blank without it.

I wasn't debating or disputing any of your points, just adding one more interesting twist on things that most folks don't realize. We definitely agree that having the fundamental there is a useful thing.

 

[J Wilson]

Well, one thing's for certain: It's one hell of a step up from a Rumble 40.

This can be done, but it can easily introduce far more issues than advantages. Once you step back from how touring pro sound does it (usually with huge power and multiple 18" driver cabinets that are moved with forklifts), the bass amp market has flirted with this, but there was never the demand to support it.

Controlling bass in that 20-200hz range is the most difficult thing in pro audio, instrument amps, and recording and broadcast.

 

[micguy]

One day I decided to hear what 20 hz actually sounds like.

If you want to hear what it sounds like, feed a 20 Hz sine wave to some sealed (not open back) headphones - they will reproduce 20 Hz just fine. Putting it through a speaker, you're not gonna hear much if anything - speakers just don't do 20 Hz.

 

[micguy]

Once you step back from how touring pro sound does it (usually with huge power and multiple 18" driver cabinets that are moved with forklifts),

The subs used are heavy, but a lot of the ones that are stacked on the ground you can push around pretty easily - they come with wheels on them. You tip them off the wheels for use; a couple strong guys can do that.

 

[dBChad]

Here is a rig that will actually do what you want. I actually know Tom Danley (the guy who developed this). Note that the size is... a shipping container. It comes with it's own diesel generator, which solves the power problem (40,000 watts in this case). Now the challenge is how it fits (or not) in the venue. The point is that what you are asking is...probably ridiculous, unless you're playing very big places, have a very big budget, and a big crew to move your rig. And you can't forget to add fuel to the subwoofer before every show. It's probably a good idea to have a diesel mechanic on your crew, just in case..

Matterhorn​

[edit]
In March 2007, DSL produced the Matterhorn, a single subwoofer made from an intermodal shipping container. Danley designed the Matterhorn to meet a military specification, to produce a low frequency sound in the range of 15 to 20 Hz, to be measured at 94 decibels at a distance of 250 meters. To accomplish this, Danley arranged forty 15-inch MTX subwoofer drivers in a tapped horn configuration, each driver powered by its own 1,000 watt amplifier. A diesel generator was included inside the container for operation in the field.[22] The subwoofer has a flat frequency response from 15 to 80 Hz, and is down 3 dB at 12 Hz.[23][24] The Matterhorn has been called the World's Biggest Subwoofer.[25]

So the Danley Matterhorn was built as a military area denial system, working by interrupting the nervous system signal between the brain and the large muscles of the legs. While hooking up an inarabass to one would be an interesting concept, nothing about that sounds enjoyable.

On the less extreme side, rotary subwoofers could do the job, but usually require a medium to large empty room as a resonant chamber to produce usable volume. Maybe you could buy a door from a hardware store to mount at a venue if they have a stock room near the stage. Bag End with an Infra Processor goes low with some pretty extreme signal processing, but they need a lot of power and a lot of boxes to get loud. Maybe 4 Quartzes with an Infra MXB and at least 16,000watts could do the job in something that could be moved in the back of a 3/4 ton pickup truck.

PowerSoft has a 32" infra sub that goes infrasonic, but needs a massive cabinet to get good volume at a mere 6,000-10,000 watts.

If you like DIY, some larger dual Eminence Kilomax 18 or B&C 21SW152-4 could be fun projects, as could a pair of Eminence Lab15 (6 in parallel gives you 2 ohms per enclosure) cabs. Another cool DIY would be dance floor panels with tactile transducers under the decking for 60Hz and below where the audience perceives the notes because they feel them.

Not impossible, but not easy. Decide what you really want.

 

[agedhorse]

Yes, getting the different parts of a big sound system to work together is part of making it not suck, and there are lots of things that have to be done right to make it work. One of those is getting the subs to work well with the rest of the system. A good tour should have a system engineer capable of doing this. A good venue will hire that setup out, as it's only done once. If you're at the local pub, the subs probably weren't set up well....and there are probably other things wrong with the system's setup as well.

There also needs to be the cooperation by the FOH engineer, the band, and the acoustic space... the RT60 can become awfully long in a large solid room.

 

[Alex Xander]

To the OP -
I have built around a dozen basses with 39”
scales, but generally only tune to F#, which has a fundamental frequency of about 23hz. My gigging cabinets are all also DIY, mostly of my own design.

Three things -
1. The longer scale definitely helps discern pitch, but in a bit of a backwards way. The note becomes more piano like with increased harmonics. You get less fundamental.
2. Forget trying to reproduce the fundamental. If you can reproduce the second harmonic with any authority, it will be plenty fine. Probably better because you won’t be wasting watts filling the stage with mud.
3. The lightbulb moment for me was purchasing a Broughton Resonanant Frequency Equaliser. I cut everything below about 50hz, while adding some resonance at that point. I can highly recommend that pedal for live use of very low tuned basses.

Here’s a bass built for a very specific purpose. Despite most of the note played having fundamentals of 35hz and below, the bulk of the energy is still around 80hz. You’ll need headphones.



And here’s some more normally voiced basses tuned that low.

 

[ardgedee]

Here is a rig that will actually do what you want. I actually know Tom Danley (the guy who developed this). Note that the size is... a shipping container. It comes with it's own diesel generator, which solves the power problem (40,000 watts in this case). Now the challenge is how it fits (or not) in the venue. The point is that what you are asking is...probably ridiculous, unless you're playing very big places, have a very big budget, and a big crew to move your rig. And you can't forget to add fuel to the subwoofer before every show. It's probably a good idea to have a diesel mechanic on your crew, just in case..

Matterhorn​

[edit]
In March 2007, DSL produced the Matterhorn, a single subwoofer made from an intermodal shipping container. Danley designed the Matterhorn to meet a military specification, to produce a low frequency sound in the range of 15 to 20 Hz, to be measured at 94 decibels at a distance of 250 meters. To accomplish this, Danley arranged forty 15-inch MTX subwoofer drivers in a tapped horn configuration, each driver powered by its own 1,000 watt amplifier. A diesel generator was included inside the container for operation in the field.[22] The subwoofer has a flat frequency response from 15 to 80 Hz, and is down 3 dB at 12 Hz.[23][24] The Matterhorn has been called the World's Biggest Subwoofer.[25]

That link goes to the Wikipedia Edit Page, here's the Matterhorn section for reading.

 

[micguy]

2. Forget trying to reproduce the fundamental. If you can reproduce the second harmonic with any authority, it will be plenty fine. Probably better because you won’t be wasting watts filling the stage with mud.

If you're playing through an amp, rolling off the low end with a high pass filter is a decent strategy, but...it isn't because the really low frequency stuff is "mud" - that's a common misconception. If you drive a loudspeaker with a lot of energy below the bandwidth it can handle (like almost any bass amp/cab that you can buy), the loudspeaker produces a lot of harmonics - many of which are not musical. Those harmonics are the "mud". Extended low end through a system than can handle it is not mud - it can be (when things are set up well)....glorious.

 

[MultiScaleMale]

Note that this alone (or in multiples) isn't going to work, this is a very low frequency tuned resonant system with a very limited high frequency response (limited by active processing to 35Hz), it's intended as a fill-in element to conventional subs, and contains very sophisticated frequency adaptive limiting and processing. It also takes a LOT of power to achieve 125dB peak SPL with a crest factor of ~10.

It's also large and weighs 300 lbs (each).

Yeah, just trying to point out that it’s not easy nor practical. At least OP didn’t say he wanted to bypass the limiter on his Rumble 25 to get 20Hz.

 

[DJ Bebop]

Talk to this guy…

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www.jauqoiii-x.com

That was his thing for a minute, exploring the use of very low notes and stage amps to recreate them.

https://www.talkbass.com/threads/jauqo-iii-x.162068/

 

[MultiScaleMale]

Talk to this guy…

Prediksi HK ⚡Angka Main HK - Paito HK - Prediksi Togel HK - Bocoran HK Hari Ini

Prediksi togel hk hari ini merupakan bocoran hk atau prediksi hk yang langsung diberikan dari pusat togel hongkong pools. Angka main hk jitu yang di rangkum ke paito hk dijamin dapat jackpot hk malam ini.

www.jauqoiii-x.com

That was his thing for a minute, exploring the use of very low notes and stage amps to recreate them.

https://www.talkbass.com/threads/jauqo-iii-x.162068/

I forgot about him. Not a company he wouldn't endorse. Heh.

 

[Alex Xander]

If you're playing through an amp, rolling off the low end with a high pass filter is a decent strategy, but...it isn't because the really low frequency stuff is "mud" - that's a common misconception. If you drive a loudspeaker with a lot of energy below the bandwidth it can handle (like almost any bass amp/cab that you can buy), the loudspeaker produces a lot of harmonics - many of which are not musical. Those harmonics are the "mud". Extended low end through a system than can handle it is not mud - it can be (when things are set up well)....glorious.

I don’t disagree, and have had the pleasure of cranking an F# string through a former band mates Nexo system setup for a crowd of 10000. Such a system is well out of the reach of the average punter, especially one upgrading from a Rumble 40.

Edit to add - reproduction of a clean 40hz second harmonic and stage of FOH levels is still something a lot of people haven’t had the good fortune of hearing. I’m not sure that E0 fundamental reproduction is needed to get the glory to which you refer.