Roger Waters has to be stupid

[JimmyM]

Let's see...Roger Waters has an estimated net worth of $290 million while David Gilmour has one of $140 million.

While net worth is not necessarily an indicator of how smart someone is, net worth is definitely an indicator of how much or little someone cares about reuniting with someone they don't get along with that well. I don't think either of them give a crap, actually.

 

[BAG]

Admittedly Roger Waters somehow managed to lay down some pretty interesting both groovy and melodic bass lines on the first couple of releases by Pink Floyd, if that was even him, later though most of supposedly Roger's bass lines were actually recorded by Gilmour.

I know for a fact that when Pink Floyd started out he didn't even know how to tune his own bass.

And this video should be a proof of that whatever talent Roger possibly did use to posses on bass since has mysteriously disappeared:

Wow.... that blows me away. I'm a self-confessed mediocre bass player, and even drunk I could have played a much better groove than that, and still put in some tasty fills. I'm a fan of just about everything Pink Floyd after Syd but can see how "The Final Cut" was the final straw of the Gilmour/Waters partnership. I much preferred "Momentary Lapse of Reason" to that last Waters album or any of Roger's solo albums.

 

[packhowitzer]

Yeah what a talentless jerk. He couldn't acknowledge Syd Barrett's talent but instead went on to write such crappy and talentless albums like Meddle, Dark Side of the Moon, and Animals. Sounds like a shoe salesman wrote those albums.

lol shoe salesman! lol priceless.

 

[tbz]

Let's see...Roger Waters has an estimated net worth of $290 million while David Gilmour has one of $140 million.

While net worth is not necessarily an indicator of how smart someone is, net worth is definitely an indicator of how much or little someone cares about reuniting with someone they don't get along with that well. I don't think either of them give a crap, actually.

It seemed like Roger did before he was able to pull off The Wall tour. Iirc when they did Live Aid Roger was much more diplomatic with his public statements that he'd been in decades.

Once that first wave of The Wall tour happened, it seemed like he stopped wanting to.

Clearly by its 2nd trip though the US he realized he didn't need Gilmore to print money anymore. So. Yeah. There won't be a reunion.

My sincere condolences goes to you, for apparently having been brainwashed by popular culture to a degree that you mistake real art and poetry for being the work of a mad mans rambling.

You lost me there, I shall from now on disregard whatever opinion you might have on lyrics, poetry and art as the words of a less fortunate in that regard.

I am not sure weather your loss can be helped or you are a lost case, unfortunately I don't have neither the time or patience to reeducate you.

On a note though that first Roger Waters quote is from the first Pink Floyd album Piper at the Gates of Dawn and the other Roger Waters quote is from the tittle track of his quite popular solo album from 1992.

Roger was still learning to write lyrics when Piper happened. Since Syd went nuts, became completely dysfunctional and had to be fired. So. Yeah. Those early albums are not really innovative lyrically. Roger didn't really come into his own until Meddle or thereabouts.

Sorry, I can't take the lyrics of a person that drools on himself as being genius. That's kind of a non-starter for me.

As is I don't see poetry there. I see insane ramblings.

You wouldn't see poetry if it wasn't sold to you by the entertainment industry as genius. You only see it as poetry because it was a commodity they marketed to you, to make a profit.

 

[Joe Ty]

It would have been nice to see them stay together, but realistically even bands that did lost their creative edge over time. Even my favorite band hasn't made a "good" album since Power Windows and a great album since Moving Pictures, and there have been zero lineup changes since non-factor John Rutsey left after the first album.

 

[NoiseNinja]

It seemed like Roger did before he was able to pull off The Wall tour. Iirc when they did Live Aid Roger was much more diplomatic with his public statements that he'd been in decades.

Once that first wave of The Wall tour happened, it seemed like he stopped wanting to.

Clearly by its 2nd trip though the US he realized he didn't need Gilmore to print money anymore. So. Yeah. There won't be a reunion.


Roger was still learning to write lyrics when Piper happened. Since Syd went nuts, became completely dysfunctional and had to be fired. So. Yeah. Those early albums are not really innovative lyrically. Roger didn't really come into his own until Meddle or thereabouts.

Sorry, I can't take the lyrics of a person that drools on himself as being genius. That's kind of a non-starter for me.

As is I don't see poetry there. I see insane ramblings.

You wouldn't see poetry if it wasn't sold to you by the entertainment industry as genius. You only see it as poetry because it was a commodity they marketed to you, to make a profit.

If you like you, only explore the surface of the market and buy what they sell you and never dig deeper, then yes I guess you are right.

Also Syd Barrett never stated he was a genius, Roger Waters on the other hand seem to think he himself is one though.

I guess this famous poem by one of the big acclaimed poets of the early 20th century William Butler Yeats is the work of a mad man too in your eyes then?:

The Second Coming

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
Troubles my sight: somewhere in sands of the desert
A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Reel shadows of the indignant desert birds.
The darkness drops again; but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

 

[JimmyM]

If we started ruling out the possibility that madmen can make good art, we'd have to get rid of about 75% of the collected artistic works around the world.

Sorry, but the madman argument is ruled null and void.

 

[tbz]

If we started ruling out the possibility that madmen can make good art, we'd have to get rid of about 75% of the collected artistic works around the world.

Sorry, but the madman argument is ruled null and void.

Name anoter person that was a nuts as Syd, that's considered a genius.

There's a gap between "insane rock star" and "so out of it he lost multiple fingers and toes to diabetes before dying of neglect."

Honestly. Syd is a very sad case. He's just a tragic example of that life gone completely wrong. I feel like the extent of his brokenness isn't normally found in public personalities.

 

[JimmyM]

Name anoter person that was a nuts as Syd, that's considered a genius.

There's a gap between "insane rock star" and "so out of it he lost multiple fingers and toes to diabetes before dying of neglect."

Blender Magazine's Top 50 Craziest Musicians

Several on that list are considered geniuses.

 

[tbz]

Blender Magazine's Top 50 Craziest Musicians

Several on that list are considered geniuses.

Can you toss a few at me you'd consider geniuses.

Brian Wilson, for example, was legitimately just suffering from PTSD, and some bad drug experiences.

Then for the entirety of the 80s and 90s his shrink drugged the shag out of him, in order to manipulate him.

Now that his shrink is in jail (or was fired and sued, honestly can't remember the outcome of that) he's actually somewhat capable. He performs and records. He's clearly had a stoke or something that caused some minor facial paralysis....but still can function despite it.

Syd was never that functional. Brian even drugged could at least could show up and mime playing.

So could MJ. And Axl and almost every other person on that list.

I don't see any names on that list that lost toes or fingers to diabetes.

Syd's dysfunction was unparalleled. Joe Walsh at his most coked out and drunk was 10x more functional than Syd, past 1970 or so.

It's just not the same. People with nutty egos doing "crazy famous person stuff" is substantially different from "he stopped being able to do anything. Or interact with anyone. Or function. Or take care of himself."

 

[NoiseNinja]

Syd was never that functional.

Syd's dysfunction was unparalleled. Joe Walsh at his most coked out and drunk was 10x more functional than Syd, past 1970 or so.

It's just not the same. People with nutty egos doing "crazy famous person stuff" is substantially different from "he stopped being able to do anything. Or interact with anyone. Or function. Or take care of himself."

Is that a fact?

Cause what I heard was he had social interaction with his close family, made paintings and even was writing on a book about art history for his own amusement.

 

[tbz]

Is that a fact?

Cause what I heard was he had social interaction with his close family, made paintings and even was writing on a book about art history for his own amusement.

That was the public spin.

This, and similar works I've read, paint a drastically different picture.

https://www.amazon.com/Comfortably-Numb-Inside-Story-Floyd/dp/0306817527

Just a quick level set, are you versed in what happened when they tried to do Syds solo album?

That he basically sat strumming one chord for hours staring into space, most of the time, and that Gilmore and the producers basically had to build it around him?

The more you dig into his story, the more it seems to me that we need to flag it as an utterly tragic cautionary tale, and not some romantic story about a true genius.

Before I did the "research" I didn't realize that either.

 

[SonicBlueJoe]

Fun thread, one of my favorite bands that I've been revisiting lately. I took my family to London this summer to see my sister whose been living there the last couple years, and she took me to the Victoria and Albert Museum to see the Pink Floyd exhibit, "Their Mortal Remains."

Great exhibit! The gear on hand was truly geek worthy, the memorabilia over the top double-geek worthy. So very well done, running a couple more months, a must see if you can. When I was there, I picked up Nick Mason's autobiography. Very fun read!

I'm pretty much where Rog is at in with that quote in the last picture.

David definitely claims it's all about the music.

The fact that he seemingly hasn't learned a new lick since 1974 seems to dispute that unfortunately.

You state a strong case for your opinion throughout, but all I can say is one man's derivative is another man's brilliant. Gilmour stands firmly on my Mt Rushmore of guitarists. Strokes and folks I guess.

 

[BAG]

Frankly all of Pink Floyd are mediocre musicians. They are brilliant arrangers, producers and SOUND architects. Mixing geniuses. They all came from som art or achitect school in London originally. Lyric writing goes to Rog. I think that given less than a month, I could pull off everything Nick Mason did on drums, just as well as coming up with new and more varied an intriguing stuff. They're all "sluggish" and a hard to rehearse band. Rick was the most talented, he knew chords stuff, voice leading and so on. The most "proud" moments of PF was when Rick Wright was in full flight. Not anyone of the others, so to speak, like when they were in "full flight" something intriguing was happenng. Since both Rog and Dave sang lead, it was almost impossible at times to tell which was which, even when Rick Wright sang one or two songs throughout their carreer.

I remember when they should be recording an album full of "house objects" they were quite stubbornly trying to make "playing" rubber bands tied to a table sound like a bass guitar as close as possible. One day Rick went "hey nuff of this, stop it, it's just insane, not leading anywhere". They were quite indulgent, introvert. And one can clearly see Daves indifference or indignation even during the Live8 reunion performance, where Roger "interrupts" the songs all of the time with talking in the songs and sort of mocking the whole event itself. During intro to "Wish You Were Here" ... annoying as f*..and other tunes as well.

I haven't listened to that since it was performed the first time. Now, after some years playing bass instead of guitar, one thing that struck me was Rogers playing on "Comfortably Numb" was not really that great (and that's being nice) while David's guitar work was the usual brilliance. It sounded like Rogers dynamics were all over the place and that he almost played it more basic than usual, possibly even missing notes (not playing the wrong notes mind you, just not filling in some sonic spaces that usually are filled). It was particularly noticable after hearing the bass playing on "Wish You Were Here" when Roger was playing guitar. The stand-in bass player sounded tighter and even appeared to be more up front in the mix.

 

[JimmyM]

Can you toss a few at me you'd consider geniuses.

Brian Wilson, for example, was legitimately just suffering from PTSD, and some bad drug experiences.

Then for the entirety of the 80s and 90s his shrink drugged the shag out of him, in order to manipulate him.

Now that his shrink is in jail (or was fired and sued, honestly can't remember the outcome of that) he's actually somewhat capable. He performs and records. He's clearly had a stoke or something that caused some minor facial paralysis....but still can function despite it.

Syd was never that functional. Brian even drugged could at least could show up and mime playing.

So could MJ. And Axl and almost every other person on that list.

I don't see any names on that list that lost toes or fingers to diabetes.

Syd's dysfunction was unparalleled. Joe Walsh at his most coked out and drunk was 10x more functional than Syd, past 1970 or so.

It's just not the same. People with nutty egos doing "crazy famous person stuff" is substantially different from "he stopped being able to do anything. Or interact with anyone. Or function. Or take care of himself."

Nah, I'm not going to keep playing the "I'll Just Keep Moving The Bar Till You Declare Me The Winner" game.

At any rate, I don't care. I still love "See Emily Play, "Arnold Layne," "Astronomy Domine," and "Lucifer Sam." And whether you think I came by that opinion by genuinely liking those songs or through brainwashing is immaterial to me.

 

[JimmyM]

I haven't listened to that since it was performed the first time. Now, after some years playing bass instead of guitar, one thing that struck me was Rogers playing on "Comfortably Numb" was not really that great (and that's being nice) while David's guitar work was the usual brilliance. It sounded like Rogers dynamics were all over the place and that he almost played it more basic than usual, possibly even missing notes (not playing the wrong notes mind you, just not filling in some sonic spaces that usually are filled). It was particularly noticable after hearing the bass playing on "Wish You Were Here" when Roger was playing guitar. The stand-in bass player sounded tighter and even appeared to be more up front in the mix.

David played all guitars on "Wish You Were Here," and Roger played bass.

 

[tbz]

Nah, I'm not going to keep playing the "I'll Just Keep Moving The Bar Till You Declare Me The Winner" game.

At any rate, I don't care. I still love "See Emily Play, "Arnold Layne," "Astronomy Domine," and "Lucifer Sam." And whether you think I came by that opinion by genuinely liking those songs or through brainwashing is immaterial to me.

I meant it as a legitimate question but I completely understand.

Tbh I like most of those songs too. He wasn't quite out of it then.

Calling it genius would be a stretch though, and clearly by the time Bike was made he was quite disconnected from reality.

 

[Charlzm]

Have you actually listened to all of Floyds post waters albums? They all have some great songs, many of my favorites are from after Rogers left even. Especially the live versions.

I think there was plenty of depth to some of their later stuff, Take It Back and On The Turning Away are both very deep inspiring songs with a lot of meaning.

Yes, I have actually listened to them. I wouldn't be spouting opinions if I hadn't.
IMHO, they sound like a Pink Floyd tribute band trying to make new songs in the style of Pink Floyd.

 

[tbz]

Yes, I have actually listened to them. I wouldn't be spouting opinions if I hadn't.
IMHO, they sound like a Pink Floyd tribute band trying to make new songs in the style of Pink Floyd.

To be honest during the recording process they had to constantly review their progress and would have meetings where they'd ask "is this Floyd enough". Then they'd go back and rerecord things more Floyd-y.

So. That assessment factually isn't far off. Per the stuff I've read at least.

 

[NoiseNinja]

That was the public spin.

This, and similar works I've read, paint a drastically different picture.

https://www.amazon.com/Comfortably-Numb-Inside-Story-Floyd/dp/0306817527

Just a quick level set, are you versed in what happened when they tried to do Syds solo album?

That he basically sat strumming one chord for hours staring into space, most of the time, and that Gilmore and the producers basically had to build it around him?

The more you dig into his story, the more it seems to me that we need to flag it as an utterly tragic cautionary tale, and not some romantic story about a true genius.

Before I did the "research" I didn't realize that either.

You are the one buying primarily Waters's publicity poopie, to basically washing his own hands on how the rest of the Pink Floyd handled "firing" Syd, basically just not telling him about forthcoming gigs until he realized he must have been kicked by the rest of the band he formed, and who's songs they were still gigging with (Gilmour remember it being Waters who said "Let's not bother picking Syd up", the first time that happened), doing a crappy job at "helping" him with his solo album (oddly enough almost every track not produced on that album with Waters involved were perfect, some first takes among them too), and basically being eager to spread the rumor at every chance he got that Syd was raving mad.

I don't say that all was well with Syd, he likely had some tendencies to schizophrenia, which no doubt was further enhanced by his drug habits in an unfortunate way, but he also likely suffered from depression, most likely triggered by the pressure of the record company, being famous and loss of artistic freedom, and being a sensitive soul I can almost guarantee his band mates actions didn't made that any better.

And now you most likely think something the lines of:

Ah, but he did take drugs and he was likely suffering from schizophrenia, need say no more: He was completely off to the loony bin!

But myself both having multiple drug experiences and being diagnosed with schizophrenia, I know for a fact that it is not necessarily the same as not being present, able to reason or producing anything useful.

Fact's are that for example the track Vegetableman, a track that was deemed unfit for release by his fellow band members and record company, can be seen as proto punk (10 years ahead of it's time) or proto noise rock (20 years ahead of it's time), also an outstanding musically visionary track as such, especially the ´74 Peter Jenner mix, not so much the new official ´10 mix, also his solo albums can be seen as lo-fi (about 30 years ahead of it's time).

All underground terms, I know, you know were the real progress in the music business happens.

Very avant-garde for his time, something you probably wouldn't be capable of appreciating or understand, but non the less basically a quite visionary experimental artist who knew what what was happening, whereas his fellow band mates sadly were no more than good craftsmen/pop musicians with little grasp of real art.