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Schroeder Cabinets ... smart design = very compact ! (regular and lights)

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#181
I think a single front facing 12" with a pair of side fire 10" would be a killer cabinet if I thought I needed a single cab bigger then my 1210. I *much* prefer the voice of a 12" driver and it makes sense that nice tight side fire drivers will give lots of bottom but not the boom of a true 18" or 15" folded sub IMHO


:bassist:

for those in the NJ area, PM or email... I'm getting a gear test party going. looks like 5 of us so far.
 
#182
PhatBasstard said:
That's not really the same concept at all (dispersion vs. floor coupling) as the Schroeder design, although I somewhat see your point.

Why then, in the 21012 cab (hope that's the right number) is the 12" folded and the 2 10" speakers front loaded (a design that makes more sense to me vs. the smaller 1x12" + 1x10" reversed setup)?
Seems to me the design theory should hold true in both cabs.
Click to expand...

Well, you'd have to ask Jorg about it, but my understanding of the cabinet is that the purpose of the side firing woofers is to save space, not produce the boomy lows of a horn. I don't think lows are in any way enhanced using this method. While I've heard that the Schroeder cabs are loud, tight and deep, I don't think that's all that new and amazing. What is new and amazing is that he does this in the smallest and lightest cab I've seen.
 
#183
Ericman197 said:
Well, you'd have to ask Jorg about it, but my understanding of the cabinet is that the purpose of the side firing woofers is to save space, not produce the boomy lows of a horn. I don't think lows are in any way enhanced using this method. While I've heard that the Schroeder cabs are loud, tight and deep, I don't think that's all that new and amazing. What is new and amazing is that he does this in the smallest and lightest cab I've seen.
Click to expand...

I would defer to Jorg's comments on this, but I suspect that there is just a bit of the horn effect (low end reinforcement) with this design, just not to the extent of the full-blown folded horn design.
 
#184
Ericman197 said:
Well, you'd have to ask Jorg about it, but my understanding of the cabinet is that the purpose of the side firing woofers is to save space, not produce the boomy lows of a horn. I don't think lows are in any way enhanced using this method. While I've heard that the Schroeder cabs are loud, tight and deep, I don't think that's all that new and amazing. What is new and amazing is that he does this in the smallest and lightest cab I've seen.
Click to expand...

Well said. These cabs do not implement a folded horn or a horn of any kind at all. It's simply an angled baffle on a conventional vented cab. It's a proven space-saving idea, but there's no low-end enhancement from it.

Nightbass (filling in for bgavin as the old speaker curmudgeon...) :)
 
#185
...I'm going with lo-freq on this. There's definetly some Vodoo involved along with psychoacoustics that make these damn things so great.

If the "side firing" speaker had no effect, than why does it supposedly work/sound better than a 322?

I can't wait to compare the Schroeder to my EA2x10VL-B, who knows, it's never too late to change...

ciao,
~S~
 
#186
Nightbass said:
Well said. These cabs do not implement a folded horn or a horn of any kind at all. It's simply an angled baffle on a conventional vented cab. It's a proven space-saving idea, but there's no low-end enhancement from it.

Nightbass (filling in for bgavin as the old speaker curmudgeon...) :)
Click to expand...

Actually they are a folded horn. Have a look at post number 155 in this thread where Jorg says:-

"The folded horn idea has been around for over 30 years in various styles, sizes and configurations. Even Acoustic offered folded horn bass cabs. I used a couple of those a long, long time ago. Drawback: to bulky, can be boomey, lacking mids and highs. That’s why front fired cabinets became more popular due to the cleaner and faster response, more cost efficient to produce, and therefore 95% of all cabinet manufacturers offer pretty identical front fired styles and sizes; naturally, different components, crossovers, tuning, etc.
Folded horn styled cabinets are more time consuming to manufacture, which increases production cost, and that’s why the number of companies who offer such items is naturally smaller.
AI, Mesa Boogie’s new combo, and a couple other companies are now trying this route again to offer an alternative, the Schroeders are just a part of this minority. Similarities in design, compactness cannot therefore be avoided, whether it comes to the front fired or side fired designs, etc., etc. I decided on this design after having built and tested numerous proto types of different styles, tunings and components. The result is in my opinion efficiency, compact, power and sound. Again, due to the limited options, similarities cannot be avoided, unless someone develops an “oval” design, pyramid, triangle, octagon ??? :D "

Hey what happened to Bgavin?
 
#189
Nightbass said:
Well said. These cabs do not implement a folded horn or a horn of any kind at all. It's simply an angled baffle on a conventional vented cab. It's a proven space-saving idea, but there's no low-end enhancement from it.

Nightbass (filling in for bgavin as the old speaker curmudgeon...) :)
Click to expand...
It's a semi-folded horn design.
Space saving?!? That kind of statement flys in the face of many of the reflex and rear firing sub cabs, manufactured by any number of companies, used in sound reinforcement (i.e. PA systems).

These designs are hardly successful if "space saving" were the criteria.

It's very simple:
Reflective firing (folded, reflex, rear-firing, etc.), because of the dispersion, makes the bass seem bigger. The trade off is the lack of definition.
Front firing (especially sealed with no ports) has the opposite effect.
This is why the combination (as in the Schroeder and forerunning Tech design) is so successful.

I just feel in the cabs that use a combination of speaker sizes that the design would be better served with the larger speaker(s) be the reflex driver with the smaller one(s) front firing (as in the 21210).

If I ever order a 1210 (1012?) I will probably ask to have the speakers reversed.
 
#191
PhatBasstard said:
It's a semi-folded horn design.
Space saving?!? That kind of statement flys in the face of many of the reflex and rear firing sub cabs, manufactured by any number of companies, used in sound reinforcement (i.e. PA systems).

These designs are hardly successful if "space saving" were the criteria.

It's very simple:
Reflective firing (folded, reflex, rear-firing, etc.), because of the dispersion, makes the bass seem bigger. The trade off is the lack of definition.
Front firing (especially sealed with no ports) has the opposite effect.
This is why the combination (as in the Schroeder and forerunning Tech design) is so successful.

I just feel in the cabs that use a combination of speaker sizes that the design would be better served with the larger speaker(s) be the reflex driver with the smaller one(s) front firing (as in the 21210).

If I ever order a 1210 (1012?) I will probably ask to have the speakers reversed.
Click to expand...


Your not taking into consideration the fact that a speaker breaths. In the fold a larger speaker isn't able to breath as quickly. Reason behind the 1210 and not a 1012. Trust me, all combination's have been tested. If your wanting just amazing lowend, then yes a 1212 would be mind blowing, but that would be more a sub cab, not an all around cab. The 21012 allows the 12 much more room to breath.

If you actually heard the cabinets there wouldn't be any questions about the design.

Have a great weekend,
Brian
 
#192
PhatBasstard said:
Then you would be much better served by the 2x12 cab.




(Still waiting on the money order for Jeff Berlin, BTW :eyebrow: )
Click to expand...

:eek: I completely forgot about that... It went out ages ago :hmm:

I'll check with the Mrs's for the receipt. I'll PM you later.
guess it's good reason to want paypal only :hmm:

So you've heard the 2x12? That's what I first ordered, but I trusted Jorg's thoughts on the 1210 over the 212. He felt it worked better. If I go for a second (which I doubt I will need to) and if it's not another 1210 (upside-down... port on left 12" still front so I can plant one on each side of the stage)... I'll grab a 212.
 
#193
I have $800 to spend on one of these cabs. Which one with be best suited for slab, and upright playing, but still have all the punch and volume for the 8 peice band I'm in. I'll be running the cab with my Trace Elliot Hexa 400watt all tube head. :hmm:
 
#194
Brian Barrett said:
Your not taking into consideration the fact that a speaker breaths. In the fold a larger speaker isn't able to breath as quickly. Reason behind the 1210 and not a 1012. Trust me, all combination's have been tested. If your wanting just amazing lowend, then yes a 1212 would be mind blowing, but that would be more a sub cab, not an all around cab. The 21012 allows the 12 much more room to breath.

If you actually heard the cabinets there wouldn't be any questions about the design.

Have a great weekend,
Brian
Click to expand...
Considering the ample porting in the Schroeder cabs, I doubt "breathing" is much of a consideration. It still doesn't answer why one cab is configured the opposite of the other if the same principles hold true.

Also, if you had seen my previous post, earlier in the thread, I stated my main cab is a Tech Soundsystems 2x12 that pioneered the design being used here (which is why I stated this is a very sound design).
While this cab sounds much bigger than it looks, it is, like the Schroeder 2x12, hardly a sub.
 
#196
BassGreaser said:
I have $800 to spend on one of these cabs. Which one with be best suited for slab, and upright playing, but still have all the punch and volume for the 8 peice band I'm in. I'll be running the cab with my Trace Elliot Hexa 400watt all tube head. :hmm:
Click to expand...

You probably should talk to Jorg.

Just my best guess:

-if you don't have PA support for your bass, I would suggest the 410;

-if you just need a stage monitor, probably the 1210.
 
#198
The "horn" in the cab design would not be very effective as a bass horn, if even noticeable.

On the large cab, the "mouth area" is about 7" by 21" (not counting the tweeter mount blocking it), or about 0.1 meter.

I'm not as experienced with horns as normal boxes, of the formulas I find online, that translates to roughly a 200Hz flare frequency. That is the cutoff frequency of the horn, and if the horn was doing anything noticeable, you'd lose most of the output below that frequency. Anyway, it is way too short to be a horn at that frequency. Look how long the horn is for this horn w/ roughly the same mouth size:

Invalid Link Removed
 
#199
Phat

I do believe the 12 breathing and the response in the tight area of the small box fold is partly the reason behind Jorge choosing the 1210 configuration over the 1012 or 1212. I’ve worked very closely with Jorge and the design behind his madness for quite some time. It can be built on request and might be suitable for some people and what they desire, but the 1210 configuration worked out the best and for an all around cabinet in the small setup.

I would be very interested in hearing your comparison between the Tech and the Schroeder since there has been so much made of the folded design and where it came from. Jorge never claim's to have come up with it, just perfected it for his taste.

Fold Horn design has been around for decades whether it be a semi fold or a full fold. No one talks about why brand X came out with the standard design (410, 210, etc. front firing) we see so often and why Brand Y coped it and how is brand Y better then brand X. The fact it that there is always room for improvement/adjustment and some will like one over the next.

If you get a chance to compare, I look forward to your response.
 
#200
BassGreaser said:
I have $800 to spend on one of these cabs. Which one with be best suited for slab, and upright playing, but still have all the punch and volume for the 8 peice band I'm in. I'll be running the cab with my Trace Elliot Hexa 400watt all tube head. :hmm:
Click to expand...

I would suggest either the 1010 or the 410. With upright your going to want the focus and not the bottom end that electric bassist want.

If you have any questions I'll be happy to answer them via e-mail or PM.
 
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