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Sealed Crossfiring 6x10 build

#61
Just put my rack back together with the eq added in. I now have 9 rackspaces of gear crammed into the front and back of a 6 space rack. The eq basically is the opposite of what the frequency chart is for the beta. I left from 20hz to 1khz flat. Then the speaker starts rising. It is about 4 db louder by 2khz. Thats where I start to eq so that I can get rid of the clack at 2.5 and 3k, then start adding in the frequencies higher than that. So, you have a flat response up to 1k, then an upper mid and treble boss of about 4db all the way up. I'll really have to try another fearful cab now but, I am really liking the crossfire, sealed cab idea. I'd do a 6x10. I thought about an 8x10 but, the 6x10 is just small enough where I can carry it into the house if I need to tweak something between gigs. An 8x10 is just too big and heavy. But, with betas, you could always build a 2x10 add on cab for a 4 ohm load.
 
#62
Strangley enough, the sound that I dialed in for my in-ears/di with the second eq looks like the frequency plot for the beta and ends up really sounding like I mic'd the cab. Pretty cool. The low and hi pass filters are what sold me on this eq. Really handy.
 
#64
I got the pair of eminence beta 10a drivers today. Popped one in a 1 cubic foot sealed cab next to an identical cab with a berg. They are the same driver. The only difference as far as I can tell is the impedance. So, I popped the second one in a cab and ran them together for a 4ohm 2x10 mini nv210 stack. It sounds great, just like the big cab. Really punchy, responsive and alittle growly. I can now confidently say that building this cab is a good idea for me. In light of the good luck that I am having with the 31 band eq I have asked fellow TB'er Lomo to let me borrow his fearful 15/6 just to see if I can eq in the same sound. Why? Because if I can get the same sound at half the weight, why wouldn't I do that? Also, it will remove any doubts from my mind that I made the right choice for me before laying down the cash and then waiting like a kid for christmas to come. Let me say this, Lomo is one great guy. He has let me borrow gear before without hesitation and is just a great guy to hang out with anyway. A really good groover too!
 
#65
Still wondering why these nv610's are so expensive. I can get 6 betas, all the other needed materials down to the last detail, at retail price, pay myself a decent wage for my labor, include a nice profit margin % on top of that, and bring it in for $1000.

Figure wholesale pricing, economies of scale, etc., they can do it for a good bit less than that. I found one on sale here for $1389. [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Value is what someone is willing to pay, but they must be raking it in over there at bergantino audio. The NV series are just one-way driver boxes, no extra parts, no crossovers to engineer, etc. That's a nice margin, man. People are willing to pay it so that's cool, but that is one expensive little green badge.:D
 
#66
I don't want to go down that road or get that conversation started. I have my own opinions on the situation. Jim does good work and I won't take that away from him. If someone really wanted an NV810, I'd say to just load their ampeg 8x10 with beta 10a drivers.
 
#67
Figure Jim has to pay for rent, utilities, tooling, taxes, US employee's wages, dealer's margin, shipping to dealers, custom packing materials, inventory holding costs for each lot of OEM drivers and raw materials, etc. etc., and suddenly the margin shrinks quite a bit.
 
#68
My way has wages and taxes figured in. Just sort of wondering out loud, if it's going to sink the thread I'll take it down. Kringle's crossfire design is superior to the nv, so he should be getting a cool $1600-$1700 for his.:p
 
#69
will33 said:
People are willing to pay it so that's cool, but that is one expensive little green badge.
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And that's why companies do not reveal what they're using for drivers or the specs on them. I'm surprised that Eminence provided specs on a OEM driver, they usually won't unless the manufacturer is no longer using them.
 
#70
billfitzmaurice said:
And that's why companies do not reveal what they're using for drivers or the specs on them. I'm surprised that Eminence provided specs on a OEM driver, they usually won't unless the manufacturer is no longer using them.
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Maybe berg changed some little something about the driver order. They've given me specs on older OEM stuff I've ended up with, but couldn't on a couple others because they were still in use/under contract or whatever. Moving to a 24ohm coil would have to affect a few other specs, so it may not be exactly a beta, but sound close enough one would be hard pressed to find any difference just listening, without measurement equipment/woofer tester programs, etc.
 
#71
will33 said:
My way has wages and taxes figured in. Just sort of wondering out loud, if it's going to sink the thread I'll take it down. Kringle's crossfire design is superior to the nv, so he should be getting a cool $1600-$1700 for his.:p
Click to expand...

When I put my MBA hat on and run the numbers, IMO, I don't think the margins are that great, but only Jim knows and I doubt he is going to share! :)
 
#72
Thread needs this pic :help:

titlephoto.jpg
 
#73
After I try eq'ing Lomo's fearful, I'll get back to you guys and let you know whats up. Im loyal to my bass and to my wife but, not cabs or amps. I'd be more than happy to love a ported, mid loaded cab that is half the weight of a sealed 6x10 as long as I could easily get what I want out of it. Although, I think the 1515/66 cabs weigh the same as the 6x10 Im proposing. Yes, I know the 1515/66 would level it in terms of output. I'll keep you guys post and let's leave the money thing out of it. Opinions very when it comes to that subject.
 
#74
JGR said:
Figure Jim has to pay for rent, utilities, tooling, taxes, US employee's wages, dealer's margin, shipping to dealers, custom packing materials, inventory holding costs for each lot of OEM drivers and raw materials, etc. etc., and suddenly the margin shrinks quite a bit.
Click to expand...

I would imagine you are correct.

In the end you have to earn enough margin to make the whole enterprise worthwhile, over other ways of earning a living. I say more power to you if you can build up enough credibility and loyalty to make a decent margin. If you are a DIY guy and can do it for less, or better, fantastic, but if you are a 'me' you'd be much better off getting something off the shelf or built for you.

I deal with it by buying used, not much help to the manufacturer, but I do my bit by promoting stuff I like on a site like this. For the $800 an NV cab costs used you get a lot of bang for your buck, and you can always flip it for close or the same as you paid, something that you might have a lot of problems doing with a home.built cab, no matter how amazing it is.

With the latter scenario that little green badge earns a premium, not just costing one.
 
#75
kringle77 said:
After I try eq'ing Lomo's fearful, I'll get back to you guys and let you know whats up. Im loyal to my bass and to my wife but, not cabs or amps. I'd be more than happy to love a ported, mid loaded cab that is half the weight of a sealed 6x10 as long as I could easily get what I want out of it. ...
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What about your sealed 15/8 ... is max output the issue, or did the custom EQ just not work out there ... ?
 
#76
I haven't tried the eq with that cab yet. Doesn't really need it. Anyway, that is really an at home/jam cab. It sounds good but would not have enough output for me to gig with my band. Now that I've proved to myself this sealed crossfire cab will work well for me, I want to be sure by trying out Lomo's fearful again. I have been doing some experimentation with winisd and see that a pair of 3015lf drivers in a sealed 5 cubic foot cab with one 6nd410 mid may work really well too. That would be my alternate cab to this one. I just need to see what kind of character I can get with the 31 band eq and the 6nd410 mid. I should know by tonight. Oh yeah, I'd appreciate it guys wouldn't slam me about these experiments on other forums. Im slowly learning about this speaker design stuff but have no interest in being a designer myself. The truth is, I get a better live tone than most of the guys I see playing out no matter what I use. Thats not an ego driven statement. I have a really good sound, Im just a tweaker by nature and am always trying to get the little bit better or more convenient format. I can see why some guys have stopped going on forums so much.
 
#77
One Drop said:
I would imagine you are correct.

In the end you have to earn enough margin to make the whole enterprise worthwhile, over other ways of earning a living. I say more power to you if you can build up enough credibility and loyalty to make a decent margin. If you are a DIY guy and can do it for less, or better, fantastic, but if you are a 'me' you'd be much better off getting something off the shelf or built for you.
Click to expand...
Where the consumer is concerned there's far more to consider than just build cost. If one is aware that the Berg drivers have 102cc displacement, whereas the drivers used by Ampeg have 165cc displacement, then one would know that the Ampeg driver can handle twice the power before farting out. That fact would probably impact heavily one's decision on a purchase, especially considering the cost differential.
 
#78
I hear you.

There are also other considerations than maximum achievable SPL, for example portability.

I toted an Ampeg 810 around for a while, and prefer the tone and size of my Bergantino over it. I've never come close to stressing it so it's not an issue for me. I also bought it for less than used Ampegs usually sell for here.
 
#79
A 6x10 seems to be the right size for my needs. I generally push a 4x10 to it's limits, an 8x10 is always more than I need and a 6x10 has enough plus alittle headroom and is way easier to move. So, if I can improve on that, great. Yes, the ampegs/b810 drivers have more displacement. They also, for me, need alot more eqing to sound right and have a big low mid hump in the same size cab as a beta. So, overall I prefer the beta to a B810 for my goals. 8 ohm drivers give me more options than 32 ohms as well. I find that eqing something nasty out of a speaker tends to sound better than eqing in something that is missing as well. As far as a DIY cost, I could take a few afternoons in my father inlaws wood shop and put this cab out for roughly $650. That is not including my time and paying regular prices for materials. Thats what it would cost me. Someone who gets special pricing on bulk materials could do it for less.
 
#80
After comparing the nv610 and the beta 2x10 wtih fresh ears, I think the beta's may be a touch brighter and clearer. It could be because they aren't broken in yet and that there probably is less cancellation going on than in the 6x10. Anyway, LOVING the betas and 31 band eq. Pretty F'ing pleased.
 

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