SG & EB Bass Club

[MrAtomic]

Appreciate you being the token lab-hamster on point there!

My pleasure. I don't like to brag, but I'm pretty great at plunging head-first into vague, potentially expensive and time-consuming projects like trying to find and install lighter tuners on an SG. It's kind of my thing. And thank you for calling me a lab hamster, instead of a lab rat. That was thoughtful.

 

[Olde Axeman]

I commiserate with MrAtomic by presenting him with the virtual "Been There, Done That" T-shirt. No need to thank me, MrAtomic. However, cash donations are cheerfully accepted.

I, too, have scoured the globe looking for lightweight SG tuners that fit perfectly and leave no unsightly screw holes in the back of the headstock. I have come to believe that they do not exist, largely because the aftermarket manufacturers target the big fish, meaning Fender, and leave the Gibson peons crying in the peanut gallery.

The end result is reminiscent of banging your head against a wall because it feels so good when it stops.

I have been experimenting and the simplest solution appears to be a heavier SG. Since the neck with stock tuners is more consistent in weight from bass to bass than the body, a heavier body decreases and sometimes eliminates completely any neck dive. In fact, if you had something like a 13-lb SG bass then you would find that the neck actually climbs upward because the body is too heavy. I used to have a Gretsch Jr. Jet bass that did this.

However much extra body weight is required to perfectly balance the bass is spread equally throughout the body. Think in terms of density, not thickness. Therefore, specifically targeting the rear strap button area and adding some extra dangling weight there will produce a balanced axe and be lighter overall than a bass with a body heavy enough to provide the same perfect balance. I don't like this idea, but it will work.

I found a heavier SG bass at a Sam Ash not too long ago and it had zero neck dive. I carry a very slick 2" nylon strap in my pocket when doing the guitar search rounds of Sam Ash, GC, and pawn shops, just to test for neck dive, and this particular 2014 SG Special was noticeably heavier to heft, but produced no neck dive with said 2" nylon strap. I don't carry scales with me when I shop but this SG bass was pretty heavy as SG's go. But, I digress.

An even simpler solution is to use a strap that affixes to the headstock like on an acoustic guitar with no strap button at the heel (works OK for modern SG basses with the reinforced neck, not so much for vintage EB's) but I don't like this idea either. I just use a 4" leather strap, which exchanges the mild neck dive on my SG bass for excess friction on your shoulder.

So... if you're not particularly weight-sensitive, axe-wise, then I'd recommend stopping the search for non-existent lightweight tuners and go on the hunt for a used, heavier SG bass. When you find it then buy it and sell your current SG bass. I'll bet the difference in price will be less than the cost of a set of premium lightweight tuners.

Thank you for entertaining my diatribe. I now return you to your regularly scheduled program...

 

[MrAtomic]

I commiserate with MrAtomic by presenting him with the virtual "Been There, Done That" T-shirt. No need to thank me, MrAtomic. However, cash donations are cheerfully accepted.

I, too, have scoured the globe looking for lightweight SG tuners that fit perfectly and leave no unsightly screw holes in the back of the headstock. I have come to believe that they do not exist, largely because the aftermarket manufacturers target the big fish, meaning Fender, and leave the Gibson peons crying in the peanut gallery.

The end result is reminiscent of banging your head against a wall because it feels so good when it stops.

Whew -- I'm glad you accept cash donations. I've got a little spare money lying around that I was planning to use for a set of lightweight, stock-sized SG tuners. Unfortunately, as you say, this seems an impossible dream. It might be worth asking why Gibson hasn't taken the opportunity to install lighter, smaller tuners at the factory, since it's 2015, but I know better than to raise that question.

I asked a customer service representative at Grover if the company's lightweight tuners were able to replace stock SG tuners and mount in the same holes, or if they'd require drilling. His response was that Grover 143 lightweight tuners were "a great choice," full-stop. The 143's sure don't look like they use 4 mounting holes, so I'm probably going to pass. If I DO end up buying a set, I'll be sure to post about the experience of trying to fit them. The other thing I'll do is try to get accurate measurements of the Gotoh Res-o-Lite tuners and see if they're the same as the stock Grovers. I doubt it, because they're designed to replace Fender parts, but you never know.

UPDATE ON THE GROVER 143: I spoke with the Grover Rep again, and he said that the 143 uses a totally different mounting system than the stock tuners. So at minimum, there'd be 4 open holes, along with a small indentation made by the 143's. I'm no expert, but the 143's look a little like a Hipshot design crossed with the Sperzel "no screws" design.

Thanks for your suggestion to find a heavier SG. Part of the appeal of the instrument is its light weight, so I'm going to have to think it over. I'll certainly buy a wide, padded strap, which might help (it does help with my SG Junior, which has a similarly ridiculous weight distribution). I thought that if I ponied up for a 2015 SG Standard, the new, substantial-looking Babicz bridge might help cure neck dive, but it turns out that the bridge is extremely light. That's ultimately very cool, but not what I was expecting.

 

[MrAtomic]

I, too, have scoured the globe looking for lightweight SG tuners that fit perfectly and leave no unsightly screw holes in the back of the headstock.

Olde Axeman -- quick question: did you ever try a set of Gotoh Res-o-Lite GB528 tuners? They're designed for inline-4 headstocks but it looks like the machinery can be disassembled and reassembled in reverse, which would allow for a 2+2 setup. I'm working to see if their dimensions/holes match up with the stock SG Grovers. The Gotoh GB528's can be seen here, in the middle of the page: Invalid Link Removed

I spoke with Brian at Buzzard's and he seems to think these GB528's are the only possible option for an SG. That said, he was quite clear that he didn't KNOW they'd work -- only that they were our best bet. Did you (or anyone else) already try them? If so, you'd be saving me some time and money.

Thank you.

 

[Brian D]

I'm liking this discussion on tuners. My wife has an Epi EB0 that I bought her a few months ago. The weakest point on it (IMO) are the tuners. They barely keep tuning, and rattle.

I was looking at the lic. Hipshot ultralites but the Gotohs mentioned look nice. Price is a concern however...

To combat the neck dive I moved the strap buttons. The neck-end button is ON the plate now and centered on the bass rather than offset. The bridge-end button has been moved about 3 inches further to the bass side of the body. It balances great now.

I'll post some pictures of the bass later when I'm home.

 

[Olde Axeman]

I looked at the Gotoh GB528 tuners but never bit on a set as they weigh 59 grams and cost about $100 apiece.

Most true lightweight tuners are closer to 40 grams apiece. Since the GB528's use two retaining screws rather than four they may actually fit, I dunno, but I thought the main drawback was that they just weren't light enough.

 

[GBassNorth]

Olde Axeman -- quick question: did you ever try a set of Gotoh Res-o-Lite GB640 tuners? They're designed for vintage Fenders but it looks like the machinery can be disassembled and reassembled in reverse, which would allow for a 2+2 setup. I'm working to see if their dimensions/holes match up with the stock SG Grovers. The Gotoh GB640's can be seen here, in the middle of the page: Buzzard's Bass - DO NOT to business with him!!! | TalkBass.com

I spoke with Brian at Buzzard's and he seems to think these are the only possible option for an SG. That said, he was quite clear that he didn't KNOW they'd work -- only that they were our best bet. Did you (or anyone else) already try them? If so, you'd be saving me some time and money.

Thank you.

I'll save you some time and money. Before you pull the trigger with Buzzards check out this TB thread...
Buzzard's Bass - DO NOT to business with him!!! | TalkBass.com
I'd personally give Brian at Bestbassgear a call before I gave Brian at Buzzards the time of day.

 

[MrAtomic]

I'll save you some time and money. Before you pull the trigger with Buzzards check out this TB thread...
Buzzard's Bass - DO NOT to business with him!!! | TalkBass.com
I'd personally give Brian at Bestbassgear a call before I gave Brian at Buzzards the time of day.

Daaaaaaaaamn! Thank you, GBassNorth! I got a bad feeling from Buzzards when he made fun of me for worrying about open holes in my headstock, but I had no idea. Thank you, too, for the suggestion to call Brian. Will give it a shot.

 

[Brian D]

I'm Brian and so's my wife!

( not really )

 

[GBassNorth]

Daaaaaaaaamn! Thank you, GBassNorth! I got a bad feeling from Buzzards when he made fun of me for worrying about open holes in my headstock, but I had no idea. Thank you, too, for the suggestion to call Brian. Will give it a shot.

Yeah, I hate to pile on but that Buzzard guy was (and I assume still is) a real character. His antics caused me to go elsewhere to buy a $4000 bass that I was planning on buying from him.

On a significantly smaller scale I was looking at installing an ashtray on my 5 string Jazz but the only one I could find that claimed to fit a 5 string was sold by Buzzard. I researched it a bit more and found that he was just marketing an SX ashtray. So I contacted SX (Rondo Guitars) to confirm it would fit and they said it absolutely would not. Imagine the grief I would have got from Buzzards if I had purchased the ashtray from him then tried to return it because it didn't fit.

As for Bestbassgear, you'll be hard pressed to find a more knowledgable, more pleasant, more honest dealer. He might not be have a solution for you but he won't ******** or belittle you. He's very well connected in the bass gear world, so chances are if he can't solve your problem he might know someone who can.

Good luck in your quest!

 

[MrAtomic]

Good luck in your quest!

I just want to thank you again. I've recently returned to playing bass after a 15+ year break. Needless to say, the process of buying and selling is a little different than I remember. The sheer number of online vendors and options is almost paralyzing, and the members of this board have been extremely helpful in directing me towards people and companies with good reputations

This morning I did speak with a store owner who's willing to sell a 2015 SG bass that was lightly demo'ed for $1075. It's got a scratch here and there, but otherwise looks new. On the one hand, I'm gun-shy because I haven't played it, and have learned from experience that there are good SG's and not-quite-so-good SG's. On the other, I've sold all my basses because of my arthritis, and the SG is absolutely the most comfortable bass I've encountered. So I guess -- and hope -- it'd be a keeper. I'm inclined to do it, and will report back... not sure why I'm so jittery about this potential purchase. Probably because the process of selling my old basses was brutal -- the secondary market is flooded, lately. So I've got the fidgets about buying something else.

Again, thanks for all the help in this thread and I'll let everyone know what I learn about lightweight tuner options after speaking to Brian.

I looked at the Gotoh GB528 tuners but never bit on a set as they weigh 59 grams and cost about $100 apiece.

Most true lightweight tuners are closer to 40 grams apiece. Since the GB528's use two retaining screws rather than four they may actually fit, I dunno, but I thought the main drawback was that they just weren't light enough.

I agree -- it looks like the Gotoh GB528's could fit (although they'd leave 2 open holes per tuner), but as you say there's the issue of weight. It seems a little silly to spend $100 for just a moderate weight reduction. I still think the Fender-style Res-o-Lites might work, as long as their mechanism can be reversed for installation on a 2+2 headstock. If they're big enough, they'd cover the original holes, too.

 

[blacktocomm]

If the price of a Gibson makes you a bit uncomfortable you should check out an Epiphone EBO. Upgrade it with a Hipshot bridge and a DiMarzio Model One (wired series/parallel) and its a lot of bass for way less money. You can see mine on page 17 in this thread.

I just want to thank you again. I've recently returned to playing bass after a 15+ year break. Needless to say, the process of buying and selling is a little different than I remember. The sheer number of online vendors and options is almost paralyzing, and the members of this board have been extremely helpful in directing me towards people and companies with good reputations

This morning I did speak with a store owner who's willing to sell a 2015 SG bass that was lightly demo'ed for $1075. It's got a scratch here and there, but otherwise looks new. On the one hand, I'm gun-shy because I haven't played it, and have learned from experience that there are good SG's and not-quite-so-good SG's. On the other, I've sold all my basses because of my arthritis, and the SG is absolutely the most comfortable bass I've encountered. So I guess -- and hope -- it'd be a keeper. I'm inclined to do it, and will report back... not sure why I'm so jittery about this potential purchase. Probably because the process of selling my old basses was brutal -- the secondary market is flooded, lately. So I've got the fidgets about buying something else.

Again, thanks for all the help in this thread and I'll let everyone know what I learn about lightweight tuner options after speaking to Brian.



I agree -- it looks like the Gotoh GB528's could fit (although they'd leave 2 open holes per tuner), but as you say there's the issue of weight. It seems a little silly to spend $100 for just a moderate weight reduction. I still think the Fender-style Res-o-Lites might work, as long as their mechanism can be reversed for installation on a 2+2 headstock. If they're big enough, they'd cover the original holes, too.

 

[Stealth Fighter]

I got back into my SG Std. It plays great!

Is it a sin to lust over a bass? This one gets 100 points on looks alone. From where is it returning?

 

[Brian D]

Here's some bad pictures of my wifes Epiphone EB0. Low light pictures and to get to grips with some new image software...

As I mentioned, I moved the strapbuttons (and installed Dunlop straploks). I also changed the pickguard screws to black ones, and setup the bass as best I could. I'll take some better pictures when I have more time.

 

[Brian D]

It's an Indonesian made bass from 2010. I picked it up used earlier this year for around $100. It just needed a good clean, new strings, and setup.

 

[MrAtomic]

OK,

I pulled the trigger, sight unseen, on a 2015 SG at a reasonable price. Fingers crossed that the build quality is identical to that of the SG's I played locally, which was fantastic, and also why I was so reluctant to buy online.

It's funny -- I tried my best to buy the SG at a local shop because they'd let me demo it several times without any hassle. But even though the bass has been on display since early January, getting played by a stream of browsing gorillas (including me), they didn't want to budge off retail pricing. I asked the manager, "what's your plan for this bass? Are you going to keep it around until the 2016's show up and then drop the price $100? If it's been on your wall for 7 months, it might be time to accept that SG basses aren't hot sellers, and just move it to make space for another Fender." He just kept replying, "I won't lose money on this bass, which cost me $1500 from Gibson." Man, I love so many things about California, but nobody knows how to bargain. So I bought it online, against my better judgment.

At the suggestion of GBassNorth, I also spoke with Brian at Bestbassgear regarding our options for lightweight tuners. He was very friendly, and thinks our only choice is to get a set of Hipshot Ultralites, drill one new hole, and fill in the 4 stock screw holes from each tuner. He also warned me that the stock tuners will have likely made indentations into the lacquer finish on the back of the headstock. Not the end of the world, but not beautiful to behold, either.

Because of my disability/arthritis, I'll probably end up trying to install the Hipshots. This will be the first time I'll be drilling/routing into a headstock, so wish me luck. If it gets really dicey, I'll take it to my local luthier. Either way, I'll keep you all informed about the project, and whether it's worth the expense and effort.

Thanks again to everyone who's been pitching in on this.

 

[GBassNorth]

OK,

I pulled the trigger, sight unseen, on a 2015 SG at a reasonable price....

At the suggestion of GBassNorth, I also spoke with Brian at Bestbassgear regarding our options for lightweight tuners. He was very friendly, and thinks our only choice is to get a set of Hipshot Ultralites, drill one new hole, and fill in the 4 stock screw holes from each tuner. He also warned me that the stock tuners will have likely made indentations into the lacquer finish on the back of the headstock. Not the end of the world, but not beautiful to behold, either....

Thanks again to everyone who's been pitching in on this.

And this is what I love about Brian! I would have completely overlooked the possibility for the old tuners to have potentially indented the wood. He's a good man and always willing to help, even if there's no sale involved. Good luck on your purchase and here's hoping you don't need to go down the tuner replacement route.

In fact now that I think about it, with the shorter SG neck (vs Fender standard 34" with long inline headstock) there would be less lever effect. So unless there's a very significant difference in weight between the stock tuners and a lightweight tuner it might not make a tremendous difference in the balance of the bass. FWIW - mine balances right at 2:00 with a standard Levy leather bass strap (not extra wide, not suede).

 

[MrAtomic]

In fact now that I think about it, with the shorter SG neck (vs Fender standard 34" with long inline headstock) there would be less lever effect. So unless there's a very significant difference in weight between the stock tuners and a lightweight tuner it might not make a tremendous difference in the balance of the bass. FWIW - mine balances right at 2:00 with a standard Levy leather bass strap (not extra wide, not suede).

I hope I have a similar experience with the SG I ordered. The one I demo'ed locally had fearsome neck dive. With it in my lap, if I let go of the neck for even a second, the headstock went for the floor. Using the right strap (I use a wide, neoprene jobby) I'm sure it'd be mitigated, but I'm looking for real balance. Since yours seems to do just that, I'll keep my fingers crossed. Otherwise, I'll have to follow Colin Chapman's dictum to "simplify and add lightness" with some Hipshot tuners. Although I'm not sure that drilling my headstock really qualifies as "simplifying."

 

[GBassNorth]

Just a thought - When you get your bass something you could do is take off one of the tuners and weigh it. If 4 of the ultralight tuners weigh about the same as 3 of the stock tuners then you can approximate the effect by just leaving one of your stock tuners off and noodling around on the bass for a bit to see if it makes a significant difference in the balance and strain on your left hand. If theres not a lot of balance difference between all four tuners on vs just three then you've saved a bit of money and work.

 

[Brian D]

Do you know which size ultralite they take?

I've fit some on a Fender-style neck before. Its easy.