Should I Use A Buffer With A Long True Bypass Box?

[Unrepresented]

Bump.

Toasted? Spanky? Random other TB player with knowledge on bypass pedals and signals from passive basses?

 

[Toasted]

Just to clarify...

I'm playing a passive bass 90% of the time and I definitely feel "tone suck" despite using all true bypass and a loop (Xotic) and decent (Mogami and Monster) instrument cables. This is probably due to the length of cable... I know I can hear loss through just one true bypass box in the chain, especially when running 30' of combined cable between my instrument and amp.

What is the ideal way of addressing this?

The best way to address this is a high quality buffer. Something like the Aguilar / Sadowsky preamp would be cool, lovepedal mini buffer, axess electronics buffer, VHT valvulator, Barber Launch pad.

The metal zone will stop the ill effects of cable capacitance but they're not the best buffer, and will bring their own problems. There will be a total 0 sum gain

 

[Ryan Mohr]

The best way to address this is a high quality buffer. Something like the Aguilar / Sadowsky preamp would be cool, lovepedal mini buffer, axess electronics buffer, VHT valvulator, Barber Launch pad.

The metal zone will stop the ill effects of cable capacitance but they're not the best buffer, and will bring their own problems. There will be a total 0 sum gain

Since the launch pad is a clean boost among other things, how does that allow it make a good signal buffer. Also, how could it be a buffer, but have true bypass?

 

[bassbrad]

A buffer is a good idea and I would put it first.
Since I use passive basses and too many vintage effects (that I am not going to alter) I use an old MXR noise gate/line driver up front and the tone suckers are in a bypassable loop.

 

[Toasted]

Since the launch pad is a clean boost among other things, how does that allow it make a good signal buffer. Also, how it be a buffer, but have true bypass?

The idea is to leave it always on. That's the answer to both your questions.

 

[Ryan Mohr]

The idea is to leave it always on. That's the answer to both your questions.

What if you don't want to boost your signal?

 

[Nick Kay]

What if you don't want to boost your signal?

Turn the gain down to unity.

 

[Ryan Mohr]

Turn the gain down to unity.

So would any clean boost pedal work as a signal buffer?

 

[niftydog]

ANY pedal with an electronic bypass will work as a buffer with varying degrees of success. So yes, a clean boost is perfect - provided you can achieve "unity" or 1:1 gain through the pedal. In fact, a clean boost will even let you apply a small amount of gain to make up for what you loose through a chain of pedals.

 

[Ryan Mohr]

ANY pedal with an electronic bypass will work as a buffer with varying degrees of success. So yes, a clean boost is perfect - provided you can achieve "unity" or 1:1 gain through the pedal. In fact, a clean boost will even let you apply a small amount of gain to make up for what you loose through a chain of pedals.

Thanks for the explanation. So only a true-bypass clean boost pedal not designed to be a buffer wouldn't work as a signal buffer.

 

[niftydog]

Sorry, led you a bit astray there. A true bypass clean boost will be fine, you just have to leave it 'on' all the time and set it for 0 boost, or 'unity' gain.

 

[Ryan Mohr]

Sorry, led you a bit astray there. A true bypass clean boost will be fine, you just have to leave it 'on' all the time and set it for 0 boost, or 'unity' gain.

So what would be the advantage of one of the new barge buffers - Link Removed - as opposed to a clean boost pedal.

 

[niftydog]

A buffer designed specifically as a buffer might have superior performance over a device that just happens to have a buffer as part of the circuit. The barge buffers have some unique features by the looks, but I have no direct experience with them, or any 'specific' buffer pedal.

I am however an electronic engineer, and as such I recommend that all you need is a buffer designed for audio, with high input impedance and low output impedance - anything more fancy than that is probably overkill for most of us.

 

[Ryan Mohr]

A buffer designed specifically as a buffer might have superior performance over a device that just happens to have a buffer as part of the circuit. The barge buffers have some unique features by the looks, but I have no direct experience with them, or any 'specific' buffer pedal.

I am however an electronic engineer, and as such I recommend that all you need is a buffer designed for audio, with high input impedance and low output impedance - anything more fancy than that is probably overkill for most of us.

The one thing that I don't understand is how a true bypass clean boost can act as a buffer even though it doesn't have a buffer as part of its circuit.

 

[scotch]

The one thing that I don't understand is how a true bypass clean boost can act as a buffer even though it doesn't have a buffer as part of its circuit.

Any pedal, true bypass or not, is effectively "buffering" or changing to a low impedance signal when engaged (circuit on). At least, that's how I understand it.

 

[niftydog]

Nobody said that clean boosts don't have buffers! That is a misconception about true bypass - there may still be a buffer in the circuit, but it's bypassed when the pedal is not active.

The important thing here is that virtually any pedal will serve as a buffer...
BUT...
if it's a true bypass pedal, it will only work as a buffer when the pedal is active. Whereas, most non-true bypass pedals have the buffers in circuit all the time, so the effect can be bypassed but it will still buffer the signal.

The basic definition of a buffer is a zero-gain amplifier - ideally with a very high input impedance and a very low output impedance. So, a clean boost pedal set to have zero-gain is effectively just a buffer. Technically speaking, once you crank up the gain a little bit, it becomes an voltage gain amplifier, but it still effectively "buffers" the signal.

 

[bongomania]

Right, just in case Aqueous or somebody is not following you there, a booster is a buffer. If it's "true bypass", just don't bypass it, as that removes the buffer.

 

[Sir Edward V]

Nobody said that clean boosts don't have buffers! That is a misconception about true bypass - there may still be a buffer in the circuit, but it's bypassed when the pedal is not active.

The important thing here is that virtually any pedal will serve as a buffer...
BUT...
if it's a true bypass pedal, it will only work as a buffer when the pedal is active. Whereas, most non-true bypass pedals have the buffers in circuit all the time, so the effect can be bypassed but it will still buffer the signal.

The basic definition of a buffer is a zero-gain amplifier - ideally with a very high input impedance and a very low output impedance. So, a clean boost pedal set to have zero-gain is effectively just a buffer. Technically speaking, once you crank up the gain a little bit, it becomes an voltage gain amplifier, but it still effectively "buffers" the signal.

On the technical side: would an opamp set to be used as a voltage follower (positive tied to the input, negative and output tied together and to the output, grounds connected) be enough to be considered a good buffer? or is there more to it that makes it better?

 

[niftydog]

I would say that's fine, but remember that "unity" is never = 1, it's always something like 0.997 etc. Use a good op amp and you'll be fine for 99% of the time.

You may choose to "set" the input impedance of a non-inverting follower by putting a resistor to ground on the input - the impedance of the non-inverting input itself is enormous, so the impedance effectively becomes the resistor value.

 

[Toasted]

The one thing that I don't understand is how a true bypass clean boost can act as a buffer even though it doesn't have a buffer as part of its circuit.

That's because you dont understand the subtle yet important difference between what a clean boost and a buffer do.

A good buffer has a high impedance input (typically around 5meg) to act as a magent to "pull" your guitar signal towards it and eliminate the effect of cable capacitance between guitar and buffer. It also has a very low impedance output (even right down to 100 ohms) to "pump" your guitar signal through the cable to the am pand eliminate the effect of cable capacitance between buffer and amp.

A clean boost increaces the amplitude of the audio signal wave passing through it - more volume. That's it, nothing to do with eliminating the effects of capacitance.

Therefore, in my opinion the best pedals for couteracting treble and bass loss in cables with passive basses are pedals that are both a clean boost, have a high input impedance and have a low output impedance. Like the Barber Launch Pad.