Sigh. Drummer trouble.

[fretlessman71]

I forget who said it, maybe it was Chet Atkins: "It takes an awfully good drummer to be better than NO drummer."

Chet BAKER. You were close, though.

 

[John Wentzien]

If the guy is OK live----Can you just "re-do" the drum tracks with a pro drummer, and salvage the session?

 

[txbasschik]

That alone should be reason enough to fire him. Experimenting and not putting a musician in a box is one thing, but when you can't keep a solid beat then it becomes an issue. He needs to realize that when playing originals and writing that it's not ALWAYS time to show off, most certainly when you guys can't even use his drum tracks on the album.

If (and only if) this guy is a really close friend of yours, you need to at least tell him that he needs to shape up or ship out. Let him know that when doing originals, he can show off when he's done his job proficiently and feels it will enrich the music, not whenever he wants to. If this doesn't do it, then it's time to find another drummer

Guitar thinks that he's trying so hard to be creative, he loses the groove. We don't want to put him in a box, but he needs to not get offended when he's asked to "just keep the beat for now".

If we can use a "ghost" in the studio and he's cool with it, that would be the happiest situation. Then we can work on the other musical problems. If not...sigh. We'll have to find someone else.

Cherie

 

[txbasschik]

If the guy is OK live----Can you just "re-do" the drum tracks with a pro drummer, and salvage the session?

That's what I would like to do. The Guitarist wants to fire him and start with someone else. If I can just get him to hold off on that and think about just using someone else in the studio...

Cherie

 

[2x4strgkramers]

It is alway tough for female musicians to fire band mates or they are ragging pyschos firing everyone. I geuss the line between nurture and hitler is a close call.

I think you should side with your guitarist. Standing in opposition to defend someone who obviously is not defensable wil fustrate your guitarist and from I gather he has a rather healthy investment into this whole gig.

Side with the guitarist find a comfortable solid reliable drummer with no substance abuse issues. Sure he won't be as fun but this is bussiness and if your current drummer is having all these issues there is nothing you can personally do about it.

Do not go creating a rift in your band over a musician who is not delivering. Do the right thing. fire the current guy,find a competent replacement heal the wounds inside the group and move forward.

Best of luck.

Thanks!

I think the studio is his biggest problem. Hejust, I dunno, cheesed up, bad. I would hate him to get fired over that, since he's not so bad live, and the "hang" is good between all of us.

Maybe we should just get somone else for the studio, and keep him for live shows, if everyone could agree to that? He dislikes the studio so much that he just might agree.

Guitarist wants to fire him outright. I want to try alternatives, if possible.
Cherie

 

[kennydakid]

I've never had to fire anyone from a band but I have had to give ultimatums and it can be tough to even do that.

good luck

 

[2x4strgkramers]

Being a manager or owning your own bussiness teachs you that you have to do the hard thing. Stuff like this isn't easy but it is often nessacary to cultivate the group and grow. It also send a very clear message that tom foolry is not tolerated and generally makes a band more discplined and cohesive as a group.

Now if this was a garage band that will never play out and jams on every other sunday while knocking down 5th of tequllia. Thats sounds like a hobby. Which is fun IMHO.

I've never had to fire anyone from a band but I have had to give ultimatums and it can be tough to even do that.

good luck

 

[kraigo]

Guitar thinks that he's trying so hard to be creative, he loses the groove. We don't want to put him in a box, but he needs to not get offended when he's asked to "just keep the beat for now".

If we can use a "ghost" in the studio and he's cool with it, that would be the happiest situation. Then we can work on the other musical problems. If not...sigh. We'll have to find someone else.

Cherie

Plan the work, work the plan. It's no good to try to be creative when the red light is on. He should have a pretty good mental roadmap of what he's doing before the take. It's not unusual to know what fills go where.

Dumbing down your parts in the studio is what the pros do. Check out the Daniel Adair (Nickleback) interview in this month's Modern Drummer, for example. He talks about it.

I'm not a "drummer's drummer", so you can bet that I'm working on solidity first and foremost. In tempo and feeling as good as I can make it feel. If I can nail that, nobody cares about the frills that could have been there. If it needs more, percussion overdubs are a time-honored thing. A tambourine does wonders to pick up the feel of a chorus.

If you are going to work with him going forward you'll probably need to lay out a ground work of what's expected of him and let him know that the band thinks he's holding them back.

The kick drum was mentioned. Perhaps start there.

KO

Added: Live, I view my job as filling the dance-floor. I'm in bands with all guys. We all want to look at girls. If it isn't fun to dance to, the girls will not stay. I can play lots of things in my basement that entertain me. That stuff mostly stays in the basement. It's a spice: a tiny bit goes a long way and everybody in the band gets to do it, so it's 1/3 or 1/4 or 1/5 of a tiny bit. It's not my job to be the center of attention. It's my job to make the person who _IS_ the center of attention look as good as I can make them look.

 

[txbasschik]

It is alway tough for female musicians to fire band mates or they are ragging pyschos firing everyone. I geuss the line between nurture and hitler is a close call.

I think you should side with your guitarist. Standing in opposition to defend someone who obviously is not defensable wil fustrate your guitarist and from I gather he has a rather healthy investment into this whole gig.

Side with the guitarist find a comfortable solid reliable drummer with no substance abuse issues. Sure he won't be as fun but this is bussiness and if your current drummer is having all these issues there is nothing you can personally do about it.

Do not go creating a rift in your band over a musician who is not delivering. Do the right thing. fire the current guy,find a competent replacement heal the wounds inside the group and move forward.

Best of luck.

Well...if Guitarist feels very strongly that there is no alternative but to fire Drummer, then I'll stand with him. We didn't get to finish our conversation because he was interrupted by a business phone call.

I need to go pick up my stuff from the jam venue. I'll get Guitar to meet me for a beer, make my suggestions to him, and give him some time to think about them. We are getting together on Saturday to go gig hunting and go see my husband's band. He can give me a decision by then, and whatever he decides, I'll go with.

Cherie

 

[txbasschik]

Plan the work, work the plan. It's no good to try to be creative when the red light is on. He should have a pretty good mental roadmap of what he's doing before the take. It's not unusual to know what fills go where.

Dumbing down your parts in the studio is what the pros do. Check out the Daniel Adair (Nickleback) interview in this month's Modern Drummer, for example. He talks about it.

I'm not a "drummer's drummer", so you can bet that I'm working on solidity first and foremost. In tempo and feeling as good as I can make it feel. If I can nail that, nobody cares about the frills that could have been there. If it needs more, percussion overdubs are a time-honored thing. A tambourine does wonders to pick up the feel of a chorus.

If you are going to work with him going forward you'll probably need to lay out a ground work of what's expected of him and let him know that the band thinks he's holding them back.

The kick drum was mentioned. Perhaps start there.

KO

I share your philosophy. Groove Uber Alles. If fills take away from the song, then take away that fill.

Our engineer told us that we should make our bass and drum parts more spare in the studio, and he was right. An old country player buddy of mine reminded me of The Ol' Quarter Note Rule...if you run into mud, go to quarters until you're out of the mud.

We've mentioned the kick to him before.

To be fair, we haven't been rehearsing regularly, either. Guitarist has been out of town a lot due to his day job. We couldn't possibly be tight after three months of erratic practice!

But I do understand Guitarist's unhappiness over the wasted money for recording. It wasn't cheap.

Cherie

 

[Jefenator]

He's a good man. I like him very much. He's also rather delicate, emotionally, and I strongly suspect that he's depressed. He's also given me some verbal clues that he's got/developing a drinking problem. Things like, "I'll try and make it to the jam if I'm not already too drunk." This conversation was held at about 10:30 a.m., by phone. He also seems to be more emotionally attached to me than he should be.

I am *worried* about the guy, but we can't record with him, and we can't use a sub to record without hurting his feelings. We have several other interested drummers.

Man, I hate this. I really think we will have to get someone else, but I'm afraid of what it will do to our current guy.

Sounds to me like a codependent trap. Tricky stuff.

It can be easy to get sucked in by pity and/or guilt when you feel like a person will fall apart unless you keep intervening to shelter him/her from the consequences of his/her actions.

But it's just a subconscious hustle, a device to keep you both on a road to nowhere.

I'm no expert - just a guy who gets to deal with a non-functional, hypochondriac mom. (Think it's tough when a bandmate can't get their **** together? ) Reading up on codependency has helped a lot, though my predicament will probably drag on for decades.

As far as bands and/or players are concerned, my position has always been this: if they're lost without me, I'm lost with them.

Good luck. Hope it works out for the best.

 

[Thor]

Cherie, you are your own worst enemy here.

You posted this knowing full well the guy is not cutting
it and you know what needs to be done. The guitar player
already knows what needs to be done.

Don't spend any more time rationalizing it or avoiding it.
Just do it and move on.

Leaving spoiled catfish another day or two in the fridge don't make it any better either.

 

[arstneio]

He's also given me some verbal clues that he's got/developing a drinking problem. Things like, "I'll try and make it to the jam if I'm not already too drunk." This conversation was held at about 10:30 a.m., by phone.
Cherie

Hmm... that's a subtle clue.

drummers are almost always a PITA. I've played with maybe 2 drummers who I liked recording with... The rest? They either become complete spazes in the studio or suddenly loose ALL feel and go way conservative. It's odd.

I wonder what Drummers say about bassists on THEIR forums...

haha, you kidding? Drummers don't know how to use computers!


sorry. Lame joke.

But on a more serious note, my band has the exact same problem, where our drummer comes to practice 30 minutes to an hour late, refuses to follow the click when recording, and doesn't even use his equipment for shows. And after the show, he leaves without helping the rest of us pack.

What we did was just not contact him. It's working...


So far...

But I can give you more updates on how that goes if you'd like.

 

[Stumbo]

Since the drummer doesn't take suggestions or coaching well, it's time for him to go. No need to waste time. He's fired himself. He needs to learn the limits of his talent (probably won't and will blame everyone else).

Do him and your band a favor and move on. It'd be different if he was working on stuff.
You're working harder than he is. Use your energy for more productive and positive things.

 

[Lady Kayri]

I suspect your drummer is only going to get worse, in lockstep with his alcohol problem. I think you may well be right, in that what's going on has quite a bit to do with the drinking. That's not going to get any better until, as said above, he has a chance to hit bottom and realize he has a REAL problem. If you keep nursing him along, that hitting bottom takes longer, and the problem keeps getting worse.
Dealing with someone with an abuse problem is never any fun, and almost always leads to at least some guilt trips, especially if abuser crashes and burns real bad after having been cut loose. Been there, done that, got the emotional scars to prove it. Never a happy situation, and not one with any easy solutions. No matter which way it goes, there's going to be plenty of hurt feelings, etc. going around.
Sometimes you just gotta suck it up when there ARE no really good choices. As several people have said, at this point you have to have a discussion among rest of the band and decide what is best for the band as a whole. His actions are affecting the rest of the band; certainly both you and your guitarist are getting wound up, and for good reason. I'm sure other members of group have also been affected by the problem. Is there any hope that the drummer may clean up his act if given a 'fish or cut bait' ultimatium, especially if it's agreed you get a hired gun for the studio work? Or is his substance abuse problem probably just going to get worse, if he doesn't get off his duff and get some professional help? Just remember, sometimes trying to nurse along / string along someone who is having problems just makes the inevitable crash much worse in the long run.
Best wishes, and I hope things work out.

Pat

 

[txbasschik]

Well, Guitarist and I met up at the pub last night and had a talk.

I made my various suggestions.

He wants to think about it, and see how things go next practice. He feels like we will be having to let Drummer go, regardless, and wants some time to think about how to do it with integrity. (His words.)

I did tell him that if we are going to fire the guy, we should do so before we begin working with someone else, and before we get too many gigs stacked up. If we are going to do this thing, we have to do it straight up, to his face, or we're no better than the people in my old band.

Guitarist feels that I, as a bassist, deserve a kicka$$ drummer (his words again), and that, like the guy or not, our current drummer is not up to the skill level in the rest of the band, and that he doesn't hold out much hope of improvement.

Looks like we'll be having a new drummer soon.

Cherie

 

[2x4strgkramers]

Best of luck in the search for a replacement. At the end of all this you are going to look back and wonder why you fretted so much over a creppy unprofessional musician with a substance abuse problem and go. Gee that was silly.

Be picky when picking a new drumer. Look for tattles about there proffesionalism.

shows up early/on time for audition.
Brings quality gear.
Has focus pays attention.
receptive to input.
Speaks mind freely " may be low on the list or not at all"
Does siad person click with the personalties in the band immediately.

Set your criteria for the new drummer sonicly and personality wise. You will hopefully be picky and audition a wide range make notes and find a new drummer that best suits your project and if not. Buy a programble drum machine.

Well, Guitarist and I met up at the pub last night and had a talk.

I made my various suggestions.

He wants to think about it, and see how things go next practice. He feels like we will be having to let Drummer go, regardless, and wants some time to think about how to do it with integrity. (His words.)

I did tell him that if we are going to fire the guy, we should do so before we begin working with someone else, and before we get too many gigs stacked up. If we are going to do this thing, we have to do it straight up, to his face, or we're no better than the people in my old band.

Guitarist feels that I, as a bassist, deserve a kicka$$ drummer (his words again), and that, like the guy or not, our current drummer is not up to the skill level in the rest of the band, and that he doesn't hold out much hope of improvement.

Looks like we'll be having a new drummer soon.

Cherie

 

[kraigo]

Good luck. This can't be easy. It's hard when someone close to you needs to crash to have "that moment". I've been there and I understand. I'm hoping that he can turn it around and flourish with you guys, but I would be the last one to say that you should keep him. He needs allies but not enablers.

KO

 

[xshawnxearthx]

not to sound like an *** but you guys couldnt figure out that he sucked before you went into the studio?

i don't know. before spending thousands in the studio, we are practicing as a band making sure everyone can play their parts. that way you don't waste money.

and that's a big FU to the guy who recorded you for not saying at the time that he isn't in the groove and is off time or whatever. every time i've been to a studio the engineer will be the first to say something sounds weird/bad.

 

[txbasschik]

Thanks, everyone.

Not, this will not be easy. I feel sorry for the man. But we can't let his problems drag down the entire band. I, too, would prefer to see him make a real turnaround. But if he's not going to try, then...we have to move on.

Some of the drummers who are interested in us are people I already know, and some that I don't. One guy in particular is someone who often plays with us at the local jam, is a *very* good drummer, and who has wanted to be in a band with me since the first time he heard me play. He's had dependability issues with one former band, and they had everything to do with his girlfriend, who wanted him to play less and do things with her more. A *lot* more, to the point he couldn't play. He's broken up with her and moved out, but I want to reserve judgement on that. I don't want to start working with him, and then have him go back to her, and then her drama, which is BIG DRAMA, will bleed over onto us. NO, THANK YOU!!! I've had my share of Big Drama, and could go the rest of my life without it.

I'm interested to see who else has expressed interest. I know most of the drummers out here. The very best ones are hooked up with multiple other bands. That leaves us with people who won't be any better than the guy we have. So...unless we find someone down in Austin or Round Rock or somewhere, who doesn't mind driving out here...

We have our work cut out, either way, that's for sure.

Cherie