The other half of it is that instrumental bands often have difficulty getting work. So you are stuck with a singer, which means you are stuck with that singer’s songlist choices. That’s just the way it is. Some things never change.I’d say if a singer can stay in key then even the most narrow range is acceptable. If you’re joining a new band you’re accepting them ‘as is’ so.....
I always give singers a lot of leeway regardless of character or talent. They’re the ones with the balls to stand there and sing after all. I can always go hide behind a cymbal and stare at my guitar.
Good luck
Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
Singers who can't sing - maybe.
- Thread starter Ancientangler
- Start date
I have heard way too many key transpositions by original artists to agree with this. The Beatles have recorded multiple versions of tunes in markedly different keys (Sir Paul has done Ob La Di in at least 3 different keys live in recordings I've viewed). With the Beatles, at least a few of those were Mr Martin doing crazy things with tapes and tape speed, often changing pitch within a particular song.
John Denver adjusted songs by other artists to fit his vocal range a number of times. The Chad Mitchell Trio changed keys for several Woodie Guthrie songs they recorded. For some songs, the idea of changing keys to suit a slightly different vocal range does not make sense, but the majority of songs can be transposed if the instrumentalists are capable.
A final point - as I get older, my vocal range has diminished on the top end. I've had to drop a few songs down because I can't get to the top anymore. A step or two almost never kills the song.
Didn't quite read the entire thread, but sounds like we've got some snobbery alive and well here. The best thing to do if you can't find a singer that is up to your musical bar, is sing yourself. One other minor point, most musicians can't play everything in every key... and singers have ranges and some keys aren't in them. Even some of the most talented singers in the world struggle with certain keys and ranges... it is the physical limitation of the artform. Too many "sweetened" and "corrected" voices in music today for people to realize that humans aren't perfect and there are fluctuations in pitch and timbre.
Last edited:
Unfortunately, shows like The Voice and American Idol do not always measure vocal talent alone, even though they claim to. With The Voice for example, the coaches pick their teams and even decide who stays/who goes during the initial "battles" etc. However later in the season, it is up to the general public to vote for the finalists and ultimately the winner. And I think we can all agree that the general public includes people who wouldn't recognize vocal talent if they fell over it - the show becomes a popularity contest. I used to regularly watch The Voice, but stopped after several seasons where talented vocalists were sent home while average singers won.
Steven Tyler and David Lee Roth brought a lot of jazz scat into rock singing.
Tom Waits has one of the most expressive voices in rock singing. He can sound like Louis Armstrong in a blender sometimes, but he gets it across (in his way).
Neil Young has created some of the most beautiful songs of the seventies, despite his high nasal sounding voice. I assume people who don't like Neil's voice don't like Tom Petty either, because they're similar.
Now you can say you don't like the *sound* of someone's voice. That's different from saying they "can't sing". Early Rush was like that for me. Not my thing, vocal-wise. But they filled arenas consistently throughout their career, so for lots of people, it wasn't a problem.
I actually preferred Robert Plant's vocals post-Zeppelin. Some of those Zep vocals are the most iconic in rock music, but I liked the smoother sound of his voice in his solo career.
All of these people had engineers that guaranteed that they were pretty close to being on pitch. I heard someone say they hated Stevie Nicks because she always sounded flat to him. I find it hard to believe that anyone actually sang too many wrong notes in recordings that were produced after the seventies. The technology for fixing mistakes was too prevalent. I'm sure you can find isolated "mistakes" that were kept because they liked the energy of the takes. But I'm guessing the vocals on most professional recordings are going to be pretty close to correct pitch (relative to the instrument tuning, if not concert pitch).
Tom Waits has one of the most expressive voices in rock singing. He can sound like Louis Armstrong in a blender sometimes, but he gets it across (in his way).
Neil Young has created some of the most beautiful songs of the seventies, despite his high nasal sounding voice. I assume people who don't like Neil's voice don't like Tom Petty either, because they're similar.
Now you can say you don't like the *sound* of someone's voice. That's different from saying they "can't sing". Early Rush was like that for me. Not my thing, vocal-wise. But they filled arenas consistently throughout their career, so for lots of people, it wasn't a problem.
I actually preferred Robert Plant's vocals post-Zeppelin. Some of those Zep vocals are the most iconic in rock music, but I liked the smoother sound of his voice in his solo career.
All of these people had engineers that guaranteed that they were pretty close to being on pitch. I heard someone say they hated Stevie Nicks because she always sounded flat to him. I find it hard to believe that anyone actually sang too many wrong notes in recordings that were produced after the seventies. The technology for fixing mistakes was too prevalent. I'm sure you can find isolated "mistakes" that were kept because they liked the energy of the takes. But I'm guessing the vocals on most professional recordings are going to be pretty close to correct pitch (relative to the instrument tuning, if not concert pitch).
Agreed, and I always lose interest after the blind auditions. To me, that's the differentiated part of that show, and the rest of it is a lot like any other talent show.
some have bubbles that beg to be burst! it's for their own good but, more so for listeners everywhere.
I have a friend who is not a very good singer. She once was a guest singer with a guy that dressed up like a famous singer. (I am purposely being vague here.) He introduced her and she started singing the song. People started laughing at her because they thought her bad singing was part of a comedy act. Then a little bit later a hush fell over the audience when they realized it was no joke that she was really bad. I saw the performance on YouTube and it was a real cringeworthy moment.
In her defense she said that she could not hear herself in the monitors so she did not know if she was on pitch or not.
In her defense she said that she could not hear herself in the monitors so she did not know if she was on pitch or not.
The song list is the easy part. If I'm stepping into someone else's band, it's because I've seen their intended repertoire and I've agreed to work with it.
I got into discussions like that once, but it was almost funny. The drummer/leader called a meeting, saying there were important things to discuss. They kept beating around the bush in vague ways, so I finally said "I'll go first. I'm not right for your band, but I shared our song list with two bassist friends and one of them LOVES the tunes. He wants to meet you right away." They visibly relaxed because they were trying to figure out a nice way to let me go, but I fired myself and found a replacement. It seemed like the neighborly thing to do. The new bassist fit right in. He, in turn knew of another band that focused on the type of music I loved, so he got ME a job.
I went for years singing just fair on some song, poorly on others, occasionally good, screechy, straining, insecure, you name it. It wasn't that I couldn't hear the pitches but I had no training and no tools and no guide, no technique. Your assumption that a musician should be able to sing in any key and the analogy of the bass player that's "unable to play in F" are poor assumptions based on bad information. That's like saying a mandolin should be able to hit a low E just like a bass. Men and women are not manufactured with CNC machines on an assembly line. There are vocal ranges that are loosely defined such as basso profundo, bass, baritone, tenor, soprano, mezzo soprano, alto. I say "loosely defined" because ranges can overlap and may be extended downwards and upwards.
What I did about this was I enrolled in my local community college that has night time and daytime vocal classes taught by very competent instructors. It costs a lot less than private lessons and being in a classroom has the advantage of seeing the magic unfold while watching others improve as they follow direction. Cost is more like $90/semester plus a few incidentals like parking permit. I've also completed four semesters of music theory before Covid which I started in 1972 with introduction to music at the same school. I will be 70 in September.It's never too late. I had to learn that my ego is NOT my amigo
I played in a 1970s Top 40/Classic rock cover band. We had a lead singer who could nail all of Linda Ronstadt's songs perfectly, but sadly , the lead guitarist thought he could sing and "harmonize" with his thin nasally voice, ruining the songs in my opinion.
He was a great mimic and copyist. You know what I mean, the kind of guy who can listen to a record once and play back the chord progression, learn and show me the bass part when I was still trying to figure out the key and play the solo back perfectly too. I guess he figured he was as good at vocals as guitar.
I've played with a couple who were similar. The guy was an adequate guitarist and songwriter even, but a whiny, thin voiced singer who teamed up with a woman with a voice like an angel. He insists on singing with her and it just doesn't cut it as far as I can tell.
But then I'm a guy who takes week to figure out what key a song is in or I try to play along with a song and it sounds okay to me even though I'm in the wrong key.
He was a great mimic and copyist. You know what I mean, the kind of guy who can listen to a record once and play back the chord progression, learn and show me the bass part when I was still trying to figure out the key and play the solo back perfectly too. I guess he figured he was as good at vocals as guitar.
I've played with a couple who were similar. The guy was an adequate guitarist and songwriter even, but a whiny, thin voiced singer who teamed up with a woman with a voice like an angel. He insists on singing with her and it just doesn't cut it as far as I can tell.
But then I'm a guy who takes week to figure out what key a song is in or I try to play along with a song and it sounds okay to me even though I'm in the wrong key.
Most important person in the band? Lead Singer.
Second most important? Drummer.
No band will be better the the worst of these two.
IMHO, of course.
Second most important? Drummer.
No band will be better the the worst of these two.
IMHO, of course.
We don’t have a singer & despite being in a pretty small town no-one (suitable as far as socially) has come forward so I have become the singer. I have had to experiment with ways of making my voice sound good and extending my range literally beyond a single octave. With such limitations I’ve taken to singing a harmony line to the original the original lyric pitch in many songs, theatrically talk some lines not sing them, all sorts of things really The lead guitarist or keyboards often ghost the vocal melody in places I just can’t do it - or solo over me which can sound really good. When it got back an audience member was actually blown away by the singer we had a good laugh - we were pretty chuffed but we had a laugh.
