Singers who can't sing - maybe.

[smtp4me]

if they can't hear themselves or can't figure out how to intonate, they may need more work or singing lessons, and they probably won't do it. And it's a delicate discussion to have with someone about that.

Agreed that some people just won't bother. Personally, I'm not sure why someone wouldn't want to continuously improve their craft, but that's just me. If singing is a hobby and not your primary source of income, okay, but if you are a professional, then it makes sense to fix vocal issues.

 

[LBS-bass]

Agreed that some people just won't bother. Personally, I'm not sure why someone wouldn't want to continuously improve their craft, but that's just me.

Because when they were 10 they would sing to entertain their families, or they would sing in church, and no one ever gave them any feedback other than, "that was so good, you have a lovely voice." And if they can't hear their own shortcomings, they believed it.

 

[mikewalker]

Musical singing requires musical HEARING.

If a singer doesn't already have it, they are not likely to acquire it in the future.
(At least, the likelihood is no higher than them sprouting functional wings...)

 

[MichelD]

I played in a band where the BL was a poet and songwriter. He was incredibly creative and his songs really were original and different. He did not come from a blues, R&B, rock and roll or country tradition, and neither did he have a classical background. He really was a one-off. if anything , his music was kind of West-African, Cuban, Reggae-Ska influenced, despite being a Winnipeg-born white as wonder bread guy.

BUT, and it's a big but, he insisted on singing his own songs in his whiny, not very attractive thin, often off-key voice. It was a fun band with a drummer and percussionist, bass, rhythm guitar, trumpet and a variety of female back-up vocalist. If only he had agreed to let someone else sing lead, it could have been a really good project.

 

[pcake]

Can’t or Don’t?

Bob Dylan
Neil Young
Tom Waits
Khalid
Cat Power
Steven Tyler
Drake

What are you after here?

Soul and charisma are why we care about singers. Once we accept that reality we’re willing to let some things slide. Try listening to Celine Dion when nobody is making you. Precise? Yup. Good pitch? Ditto. Smooth? Spot on. So if you’re doing Celine tribute your criteria are different than when you’re shopping rock, blues, R&B, etc.

imo they made their voices work for the music. that is not usually the case with offkey or croaking singers, but it can be done. not with all music, though.

 

[Altitude]

I’ve got teenage daughters, so it’s hard to avoid “The Voice” on TV. And I don’t hate it; they’ve made it kind of fun with all the ball-busting among the coaches.

But I do sometimes wonder how far certain famous singers could get on a show where the quality of their voice is the only measured element. Peter Gabriel wouldn’t have gotten past the audition. Chris Cornell would have gotten a four chair turn in the first ten seconds.

 

[Mickp]

A few years back we auditioned singers. Myself and the drummer split the vocals, and, while we're decent, neither of us would win any prizes. I was amazed by how poor most of the auditions were. Folks showed up and were almost too shy or overawed to actually sing, or had an ego wayyyy bigger than their talent. I think every one out of maybe 5 we tried had varying levels of pitchiness. Needless to say, it's still the drummer and I.
On the topic of listening to recordings, beware, whether studio or live, pitch correction is all too easy these days (I should know, I use it )

 

[Axtman]

My experience is that singers who also play an instrument tend to sing more on pitch than those that don't. The singers don't have to be accomplished instrumentalist. I believe playing an instrument helps a person learn pitches and intervals. (I know my "hearing" has improved when I started playing a fretless bass and upright.)

BTW, my niece graduated from a music college as a vocalist. She did not learn an instrument in grade/high school. In order to graduate, she was required to learn piano and play at a "C" grade level. I believe the reason why is what I stated above plus she could practice alone and pluck out notes/chords to accompany herself.

 

[Ross W. Lovell]

As my local music scene slowly wakes up from COVID isolation, I'm looking for a new band. I'm listening to people's recordings and it confirms what I already knew: A lot of singers are consistently way off key, and/or they're trying to sing in a key which makes no sense for their vocal range. This leads to an interesting question: How do you tell if a singer has more potential than what the recordings reveal? And more dangerous: How do you have this discussion if you're the new guy entering an existing band?

If they have given you a recording of their singing that is supposed to be representative of their competency, why would you want to deal with them if it's under par?

Clearly they can't tell?

Plus, if they are singing in a key they can't and don't know, it's doubtful you bringing it up and the band changing key is going to help?

I figured this was going to be more about singers that had some talent but had absolutely no mic technique, nor were they used to hearing themselves.

The more important question is how is this new person entering the band without the members discussing this simple aspect, seriously?

I think you are asking the WRONG question.

 

[ToneMonkey]

I once played in a cover band where the singer/BL was embarrassingly bad... sang stuff he had no business even attempting. But... the guy had huge brass balls and more charisma and confidence than any ten people I know.

Our first gig was a midweek tavern thing. He turned $100 into $325 just by chatting up the owner and saying, "Hey, look what we did tonight. I promise you next time you'll do even better than that." And we did.

Like I said... big brass balls.

He also played harmonica. But never paid any attention to which key harp he drug out. That kind of guy.

It was his first band. I spent a lot of time building into him... convincing him that he could lead a band. Turns out that I created a monster... an alcoholic monster with a huge freakin' ego. Oh well. Good times.

 

[dkelley]

This is one reason why I'm lead singer in my band (as well as bassist, and other instruments if required).

I'll talk about myself here since it's my main reference in this situation, sorry for the self centered post. I'm not a great singer in my actual voice-box, but I have pulled off being a very good lead singer in the right environment, song/recording, style, etc.

As opposed to many pure-singers who work mostly in popular music, I'm a musician with a lot of theory knowledge and experience harmonizing and improvising in various genres.

Keys/harmonies/melodies are easy for me to keep track of and come up with fast...

...while a singer with a truly great voice, due to their physiological make-up, but without the ear/talent/training/knowledge/experience I have, will sometimes have trouble coming up with the right notes or fixes or harmonies quickly, if at all. From what I've experienced over the years.as it does help immensely to improve one's self awareness.

Am I as good a singer as a great dedicated front man? No. Am I as entertaining to watch or as magnetic of a personality on stage? Nope.

When you hear a problem with your singing, you try to fix it. training/experience/theory/musicianship helps me here, but pure only-singers can have all that too, and some are brilliant at it.

I had the privilege to watch Jon Anderson from Yes compose complex vocal lines in real time with YES, and he was thinking silently to himself while the others sat silently waiting for his instructions in this arrangement, and then he started giving them instructions in full on chords, complex ones with jazz voicing etc, all from inside his head, composing in his mind like Mozart in the movie Amadeus.

That's sort of what I do (and lots of experienced musicians do) in my mind when I compose or arrange (for voice or instruments), but many singers can't seem to do that. Therefore, it's more of a challenge for them to know what to create based on music around them, or how to fix it when they don't fit it, or sometimes even when to realize there is something that needs fixing.

 

[buldog5151bass]

If you are the new guy entering the band, you are entering that band as it is. Unless you are asked, telling a band they don't know how to select a vocalist (even if you are right) is a good way to get a pink slip. If you can't accept the vocals, pass on the band.

 

[dbsfgyd1]

As my local music scene slowly wakes up from COVID isolation, I'm looking for a new band. I'm listening to people's recordings and it confirms what I already knew: A lot of singers are consistently way off key, and/or they're trying to sing in a key which makes no sense for their vocal range. This leads to an interesting question: How do you tell if a singer has more potential than what the recordings reveal? And more dangerous: How do you have this discussion if you're the new guy entering an existing band?

Re: Discussion

Record all practices and performances. It’s worth a thousand words. As for the difference between their recordings, and what you hear live, keep in mind, you can cover a lot of problems in the studio that you can’t bare naked at the gig.

 

[theduke1]

I think that karaoke singers travel in the karaoke circle which is they all cheer for each other which leads them to believe they can sing any song. And they must be good otherwise no one would cheer them on
In my experience most people who sing karaoke shouldn’t.
Either you can sing or you can’t. Just my take

IMVHO
Duke

 

[obimark]

As my local music scene slowly wakes up from COVID isolation, I'm looking for a new band. I'm listening to people's recordings and it confirms what I already knew: A lot of singers are consistently way off key, and/or they're trying to sing in a key which makes no sense for their vocal range. This leads to an interesting question: How do you tell if a singer has more potential than what the recordings reveal? And more dangerous: How do you have this discussion if you're the new guy entering an existing band?

. Even if the rest of the band is very tight, without a good singer you are severely limited and may even get fired from some gigs.
I had a band with a bad singer and the Bar Manager pulled me aside after the first set and said, hey "you are great (bass obivously ), your drummer is good, guitar is good, but get a guy who can sing. I am sending you home early with half pay."

 

[JeezyMcNuggles]

As my local music scene slowly wakes up from COVID isolation, I'm looking for a new band. I'm listening to people's recordings and it confirms what I already knew: A lot of singers are consistently way off key, and/or they're trying to sing in a key which makes no sense for their vocal range. This leads to an interesting question: How do you tell if a singer has more potential than what the recordings reveal? And more dangerous: How do you have this discussion if you're the new guy entering an existing band?

You tell by playing with them for a bit.

You tell them by telling them.

 

[39-Bassist]

***SOME MAY NOT AGREE BUT***
I guess a real audition and hearing singer live will actually be the info you need to make your decision.
DON'T take the excuse of "well I haven't sang in a while because of..."
All that shows is they don't work on their abilities or take their music seriously.
Move on.

 

[OogieWaWa]

A couple of things from someone who started to learn to sing at 62, a couple of years ago.

My two band mates that both sing heard me singing at practice and forced me to get a mic. So now I'm a singer, I guess.

Range: Someone may have a great voice, but if limited in upper range like I am, you end up limited in the number of songs you can sing in the original key. So you might have to play some songs in unfamiliar keys. Always a lot of discussion on whether that works or not. Heck, I'd love to do a few really high ones in the original key an octave down, but the other guys don't think it'll work. (Edit: like Outfield's Your Love.) And the lower half of my range is pretty useless in a cover band, unfortunately, nobody needs a C2 for anything.

And after a year now singing about 20% of our songs, and harmony/backing on two thirds of what's not mine, I have gotten numerous comments on how supposedly incredibly well I sing Dylan and Thorogood songs. I'm not sure whether I'm being complemented or not!!! But I'll take the ones on the Jeff Healey songs!

 

[chazolson]

I think you develop your "ear" (actually your brain's capacity to analyze sound) when you are a little kid, when all those synapses and connections between your noggin and your eyes, ears, nose, mouth, touch, etc. are developing. If you are involved in music as a kid, you learn to hear pitch so much better. Rick Beato has done videos on this with his young son, who has perfect pitch. If you don't learn to identify pitch, and adjust when you're sharp or flat, while you are young, you probably never will.

 

[chazolson]

Which reminds me: When I was playing cello in college, the college brought Krystof Penderecki (kinda famous modern composer guy who I think had some music in 2001 A Space Odyssey) on campus for a month. His music (or at least some of it) had, not 12, but 24 pitches in an octave. So the half-step space between B and C, for example, was divided into two pitches. Whole note intervals became four distinct pitches. And so on. The orchestra hated playing this stuff because he was always complaining we were out of tune. Yeah, no poopie!