Singers who can't sing - maybe.

[Ancientangler]

As my local music scene slowly wakes up from COVID isolation, I'm looking for a new band. I'm listening to people's recordings and it confirms what I already knew: A lot of singers are consistently way off key, and/or they're trying to sing in a key which makes no sense for their vocal range. This leads to an interesting question: How do you tell if a singer has more potential than what the recordings reveal? And more dangerous: How do you have this discussion if you're the new guy entering an existing band?

 

[Roland GR 88]

I’d say if a singer can stay in key then even the most narrow range is acceptable. If you’re joining a new band you’re accepting them ‘as is’ so.....
I always give singers a lot of leeway regardless of character or talent. They’re the ones with the balls to stand there and sing after all. I can always go hide behind a cymbal and stare at my guitar.
Good luck

 

[Shalto]

This leads to an interesting question: How do you tell if a singer has more potential than what the recordings reveal?

Good question, I'm certainly no expert but I guess range is an indicator of what "could be". Other than that I'd look for someone with self awareness that they aren't singing perfectly (can't fix it if they don't see it's broke). Some knowledge of theory (e.g can ask the keys to hit a c for them to work off) is probably a good sign, as is some knowledge of vocal technique

 

[pcake]

i've been a singer for decades and worked with many, many singers in bands, classes, choruses and singing groups.

i've worked with many singers - briefly - who sang off key. some asked me to help them, and when they were friends, i did try. but ultimately i never worked with a singer who sang off key who later transformed into a singer who sang on key.

consider this - even if you have trouble singing on key, you should hear on your recordings that you're off. you should then go back and sing a little higher if you're flat or sing a little lower if you're sharp. people who actually release recordings of them singing off key either can't hear the problem, a problem in itself, or they don't care enough to fix it or work harder to sing on key, and those people aren't going to spend the effort. they've already shown that.

but keep in mind that this is a mix of my experience and my own opinions.

 

[Killing Floor]

Can’t or Don’t?

Bob Dylan
Neil Young
Tom Waits
Khalid
Cat Power
Steven Tyler
Drake

What are you after here?

Soul and charisma are why we care about singers. Once we accept that reality we’re willing to let some things slide. Try listening to Celine Dion when nobody is making you. Precise? Yup. Good pitch? Ditto. Smooth? Spot on. So if you’re doing Celine tribute your criteria are different than when you’re shopping rock, blues, R&B, etc.

 

[Ancientangler]

i've been a singer for decades and worked with many, many singers in bands, classes, choruses and singing groups.

i've worked with many singers - briefly - who sang off key. some asked me to help them, and when they were friends, i did try. but ultimately i never worked with a singer who sang off key who later transformed into a singer who sang on key.

consider this - even if you have trouble singing on key, you should hear on your recordings that you're off. you should then go back and sing a little higher if you're flat or sing a little lower if you're sharp. people who actually release recordings of them singing off key either can't hear the problem, a problem in itself, or they don't care enough to fix it or work harder to sing on key, and those people aren't going to spend the effort. they've already shown that.

but keep in mind that this is a mix of my experience and my own opinions.

I often wonder if some singers could spend more time learning what the PA and accessories could do for them. They may not realize what's possible. I had one singer who simply didn't care. His successor spent lots of time talking to the sound tech we used from time to time, and he took notes because the tech couldn't be at every gig. He improved in a matter of weeks.

 

[LBS-bass]

i've been a singer for decades and worked with many, many singers in bands, classes, choruses and singing groups.

i've worked with many singers - briefly - who sang off key. some asked me to help them, and when they were friends, i did try. but ultimately i never worked with a singer who sang off key who later transformed into a singer who sang on key.

consider this - even if you have trouble singing on key, you should hear on your recordings that you're off. you should then go back and sing a little higher if you're flat or sing a little lower if you're sharp. people who actually release recordings of them singing off key either can't hear the problem, a problem in itself, or they don't care enough to fix it or work harder to sing on key, and those people aren't going to spend the effort. they've already shown that.

but keep in mind that this is a mix of my experience and my own opinions.

This is it in a nutshell. A singer either has the ear for intonation, or they don't. But the only thing I will add to this is that there's a physical component to getting it right.

When I first came back to music after a very extended absence, my voice was toast. In my 20's and 30's I sang very well and did some studio work, cut some records as a lead singer, etc. But when I tried to croak out a song at the age of 57 after putting that down, it wasn't happening. I could hear very well that it wasn't happening, but I couldn't finesse my voice into shape to make it happen without a lot of work. It's very much like lifting weights. You can't get there unless you get everything into shape.

As I worked more with the bands I was in to sing harmonies, things came back to a degree. They never came back to what they were before and I don't know if they could, because the bands I was in all had good lead singers and I was never called upon to give it everything I had in the vocal department, and it would take a lot more work to get there. I started learning jazz standards, in part to give my voice a better workout. I've gotten close, but at my age, I also lose it very quickly. I'd have to stay on top of it to do what I used to be able to do.

But I would say that someone who tells you they have not been singing for a while but used to sing might actually have potential to get it together. Other than this, if they can't hear themselves or can't figure out how to intonate, they may need more work or singing lessons, and they probably won't do it. And it's a delicate discussion to have with someone about that.

 

[Ancientangler]

Can’t or Don’t?

Bob Dylan
Neil Young
Tom Waits
Khalid
Cat Power
Steven Tyler
Drake

What are you after here?

Soul and charisma are why we care about singers. Once we accept that reality we’re willing to let some things slide. Try listening to Celine Dion when nobody is making you. Precise? Yup. Good pitch? Ditto. Smooth? Spot on. So if you’re doing Celine tribute your criteria are different than when you’re shopping rock, blues, R&B, etc.

None of the above. I prefer singers with the vocal control of someone like Keb Mo and Bonnie Raitt.

 

[LBS-bass]

I often wonder if some singers could spend more time learning what the PA and accessories could do for them. They may not realize what's possible. I had one singer who simply didn't care. His successor spent lots of time talking to the sound tech we used from time to time, and he took notes because the tech couldn't be at every gig. He improved in a matter of weeks.

If a singer is on stage and can't hear what they are doing, this is a big problem, and it's a very common problem. A good monitor mix can fix a large number of issues. A silent stage with in ear monitors is even better.

 

[MrLenny1]

As always good luck. Singers seem to be the weak link
in bands. Usually one of the guitar players does a better job.
Sometimes you get lucky, I worked with a band once that had 4 lead singers.

 

[Jazzdogg]

There are a lot of highly paid "singers" who I don't care for and wouldn't listen to even if I were given free tickets; when it comes to vocalists, I'm picky.

It all starts with good ears, good time, and the ability to serve the song instead of their own ego. If those three boxes aren't checked, I have no interest in playing with them - even if they help with load-in and load-out.

Sorry, but life is too short to collaborate with bad singers.

 

[dpaul]

Can’t or Don’t?

Bob Dylan
Neil Young
Tom Waits
Khalid
Cat Power
Steven Tyler
Drake

What are you after here?

Soul and charisma are why we care about singers. Once we accept that reality we’re willing to let some things slide. Try listening to Celine Dion when nobody is making you. Precise? Yup. Good pitch? Ditto. Smooth? Spot on. So if you’re doing Celine tribute your criteria are different than when you’re shopping rock, blues, R&B, etc.

Ironically, and probably off topic, but the same people who vigorously defend Dylan and Neil Young a lot of the time (it’s about the lyrics man, you just don’t get it) are often the same one’s to tell me they hate Rush because Geddy Lee can’t sing.

 

[Killing Floor]

Ironically, and probably off topic, but the same people who vigorously defend Dylan and Neil Young a lot of the time (it’s about the lyrics man, you just don’t get it) are often the same one’s to tell me they hate Rush because Geddy Lee can’t sing.

Agree. A good singer means different things to different people. Nobody ever left a Rush show early. Mission accomplished.

 

[klejst]

Just do what the singer in my friends band always did...blame the drummer and bass player for being off rhythm and thus why he was off key.

 

[lfmn16]

As my local music scene slowly wakes up from COVID isolation, I'm looking for a new band. I'm listening to people's recordings and it confirms what I already knew: A lot of singers are consistently way off key, and/or they're trying to sing in a key which makes no sense for their vocal range. This leads to an interesting question: How do you tell if a singer has more potential than what the recordings reveal? And more dangerous: How do you have this discussion if you're the new guy entering an existing band?

I don’t. If they haven’t noticed they are off key by now, they aren’t interested in improving.

I saw a video of a band looking for a guitarist. The female singer was singing Heart’s barracuda. She was so far off key I literally cringed.

 

[LBS-bass]

I don’t. If they haven’t noticed they are off key by now, they aren’t interested in improving.

I saw a video of a band looking for a guitarist. The female singer was singing Heart’s barracuda. She was so far off key I literally cringed.

I had a similar experience recently. Was cruising CL just out of curiosity and saw an ad for a singer/guitar duo looking for band members. Clicked on the provided link. The singer only had one job, and wasn't singing within her range or hitting her high notes well at all. Guitarist was ok, but they were a hard pass from me due to the singer's shortcomings.

 

[MCS4]

Do they sound great regardless of the issues in hitting the notes and/or note selection? Meaning, they already sound like someone you would like to have a singer in your group, but they have some things to clean up that could make them even better?

If not, I don't seen any reason to bother, unless maybe if the band itself is *really* great and it is a package deal that you think would be worth some extra attention to the vocals.

 

[cableguy]

I had a similar experience recently. Was cruising CL just out of curiosity and saw an ad for a singer/guitar duo looking for band members. Clicked on the provided link. The singer only had one job, and wasn't singing within her range or hitting her high notes well at all. Guitarist was ok, but they were a hard pass from me due to the singer's shortcomings.

I have found this in the past as well. Singers either severely overestimate their ability or just don't know the range. When they're in their range they sound great. Maybe they (or their band) just need to stay in their lane and pick songs that suit that range, rather than try to hit that high note that they just can't. And for the love of God people, stop trying to be Ann Wilson, the lady is almost untouchable as a vocalist......

 

[smtp4me]

Ironically, and probably off topic, but the same people who vigorously defend Dylan and Neil Young a lot of the time (it’s about the lyrics man, you just don’t get it) are often the same one’s to tell me they hate Rush because Geddy Lee can’t sing.

As a Rush fan I am biased. Regardless, there is a world of difference between "I don't like the sound of their voice" and "they can't sing". Geddy can certainly sing on pitch. Whether or not people like his voice is a different topic all together.

 

[LBS-bass]

I have found this in the past as well. Singers either severely overestimate their ability or just don't know the range. When they're in their range they sound great. Maybe they (or their band) just need to stay in their lane and pick songs that suit that range, rather than try to hit that high note that they just can't. And for the love of God people, stop trying to be Ann Wilson, the lady is almost untouchable as a vocalist......

As a singer I don't buy into the trope that each of us has a finite, unexpandable range, because I've done the work myself to expand my range and hit notes that were hard for me in the past. If a note is just outside your normal range it can take some finesse to find the best way to get to it, but I was almost always able to do it.

Be that as it may, if you aren't doing that work, and you can't hit it, don't sing it. Or have your accompanist transpose it. Or do something so you don't sound like a screeching cat.