Solid state/class d vs tube amps

[Sunset Shalom]

Could anyone tell me what a tubey sound is??
It seems that it's a warm ans massive sound, according to what I've read many times. But to me an SS amp can do that too.

I think a lot of it is in the responsiveness. Tubes have a very unique response where your playing can take it from smooth warm tones to something with a lot more bite.

Of course there are a lot of different kinds of tube amps, some designed for sparkling cleans and others for sizzling distortion. But they all tend have a really unique response to your playing.

 

[baxter_x]

Thanks for your input.
When I was owning an Ampeg SVT 4 Pro, I compared it against the SVT 2 and the SVT-CL Heritage.
I was amazed how the SVT 4 could sound like those 2 all tubes amps. However, I could notice some harmonics coming out of the all tubes amps that were not coming from the SVT 4.
So according to my experience all tube amps let harmonics go through them more than SS amps. The SVT 4 sounded a bit "darker". But it can be as massive and warm as all tube amps.
However I had to push the master of both the SVT 2 and the CL to hear them where the SVT 4 was only at 30% for the same volume produced.

To me, all tubes amp are great for studios rehearsals and home. But for heavy gigging hybrid are more "adapted", reliable, always sound the same.

 

[Calexia13]

I have 4 tube amps, a mesa d-180, a bass buster, a mesa prodigy, and an ashdown ctm 15, i have had the older mesas for about 7 years, the d-180 still has the original meaa str-415s which are sylvania, still going strong, and the other 3 have OEM tubes as well. They all sound strong, its a myth that you have to change tubes every year or so. Probably started by tube resellers. I think more people change tubes to tube roll than out of necesity. I don't gig but jam often probably about 10 hours a week on each amp for the last 5 years.

 

[Dabndug]

Life is short. Go with what pleases your ears as long as it doesn't bankrupt you and lead to six months of eating dog food.

On the other hand (and at the risk of being pilloried) - the vast majority of live audiences are incredibly unlikely to detect, let alone appreciate, any difference in tone generated by adopting a new rig.

 

[baxter_x]

They all sound strong, its a myth that you have to change tubes every year or so

I don't think it's a myth if you gig a lot and move your amp a lot.

 

[Deak]

Have you considered trying something like the LeBass, or the old EBS ValveDrive (I think that's what it was called)? Both are great tube preamps that might be able to deliver the tone/feel you're looking for, without the weight and hassle of a full-on all-tube head.

This is a very sensible move. I have a D800 and love it but when I engage the LeBass it's a whole new creamy sound. Now that being said, It's all in your ears and a real tube amp search may be the only thing that sounds right to you.

I'm still looking for that Sunn 200s sitting in grandmas basement. "Oh this ol' thing?" Our Jimmy left that here years ago, and I'm tired of it being in the way every time canning season comes. Tell you what, 20 bucks and it's yours but I can't help you lift it. (Steady, steady on your feet Deak, don't pass out). Give her 50 and load up.

 

[40Hz]

for some reason, that has become the unofficial Bible of tube amps for people who don't know anything about them.

That's because Groove Tubes knows nobody ever went broke telling people what they wanted to hear.

 

[seamonkey]

You will probably get your music heard going through a class-d amp - like a FOH, in a car, or headphones as it's streamed. And there is going to be no compromise to the sound. It's going to sound great.

The common marketing scheme of heads being producers of tone is just that "marketing". Musicians decide what the tone is. And they don't compromise to get it. It's up to the musician to produce their sound/tone - not some single device in the heads. There are many tools musicians use from technique to technology.

 

[40Hz]

If you wnat to play a tube amp, make sure to have a good mic, and stand so you mic the amp and run it through the PA. Watch the PBS specials, the tube amps on stage are mic'ed.

With all due respect, I don't know what conclusion you think people should be drawing from that observation. There's several reasons for a sound professional electing to put a mic in front of a bass amp. And none of them have anything whatsoever to do with whether or not the amp is tube driven.

 

[pigpen1]

Because they were told to do so by tube sellers for decades.

Keep it simple. "If it sounds good it is good."

Having said that I always kept a spare set of tubes, but never changed them unless needed, but changing them on a set schedule, no way.

 

[Michael Schreiber]

Thanks guys for all the info. I am currently looking at Ampegs SVT CL and V4b.

I am not too sure that I need the 300W tube power since I am not playing 100k people shows lol.

Otoh I have realized that the V4b and CL don't sound the same. They have quite a different voicing as far as I heard.

The V4b does weigh half less though which is more than welcome of course.

And one more thing - is there any difference in the ampeg heritage and non heritage line besides the made in usa thing and different cosmetics?

Edit: Oh, and please do continue the discussion, I could sure use as much info as possible. I appreciate it.

Get a V-4B - if ever needed, you can always add a second one
Just kidding, I'd say follow your ears and go for the one that sounds best to you.
You can't go "wrong" with either of them (V-4B, SVT-CL, SVT-VR), IMHO.

And as for the "Made in XYZ" thing, I'm happy with my made in Asia V-4B which I bought in spring. No problems, so far.
Very well crafted; stable, looks great, feels good (turning the knobs etc.), sounds perfect to me.
Doesn't feel to me as they'd have compromised quality for price.
It's not a cheap amp, anyway - yet, to me it's worth every cent.

 

[Sparkl]

Man, you look young enough in your pic, that 80 lbs shouldn't be an issue, and you obviously you enjoy the tube sound, so I think you should get the tube amp. Keep your others too.

I can lift it, sure (195cm, 105kg, don't know the pund and feet lengths), but I would love to use this amp regularly and since a vast common majority of gigs is in pubs and bars and hotels etc. (and very often, at least 3x a week) it would be very difficult to make this idea work. I would have to probably restrict this gear for bigger gigs and I hate doing that I wanna enjoy the tube godness (intentionally with one "o") everywhere

I know, it's utopia. That's why I'll get a bigass tube amp for big gigs and studio, and will keep at least my th350 for small gigs.

Should work in harmony

 

[pigpen1]

I can lift it, sure (195cm, 105kg, don't know the pund and feet lengths), but I would love to use this amp regularly and since a vast common majority of gigs is in pubs and bars and hotels etc. (and very often, at least 3x a week) it would be very difficult to make this idea work. I would have to probably restrict this gear for bigger gigs and I hate doing that I wanna enjoy the tube godness (intentionally with one "o") everywhere

I know, it's utopia. That's why I'll get a bigass tube amp for big gigs and studio, and will keep at least my th350 for small gigs.

Should work in harmony

Seriously though why? Do you drive yourself to gigs? If not I get it. But if were taking myself I would take what I wanted and what I liked. The volume floor on a big tube amp through a big cab is zero usually right? You can be as quiet as you want to be I guess. Sure, you might not get to push those tubes and get what you want in that regard, but I think you'd still enjoy it.

Life is short, buy the amp.

Also, check out Mesa Prodigy, you can cut the power in half with a switch, down to 125 watts. Built like a tank too.

 

[DennyOnBass]

Can you get a "round" tone with good bottom on the AG 700? I have trouble with this on my TH 500.

I was getting a nice round tone this morning with my PBass. The EQ isn't super versatile, but I really like the frequencies they chose for the low and low mid knobs. My only complaint about the amp would be that it's kind of dry and vanilla sounding, not a whole lot of character, but that's why I have the LeBass pedal on my board.

 

[B-line]

The "problem" is that the current generation of lightweight heads sound SO damn good! I could rave about my Quilter all day long, it kicks, and is a massive 4 lbs!!

But I also own (3) all-tube rigs, inc. A Mesa "Buster" 2x10 combo!! which at 90 lbs and wedge-shaped, is one of the most difficult rigs ever to load in/out, and 2 heads with (4) and (2) by KT-88's respectively each weighing in at around 40-lbs.

WHY do I keep them in my arsenal?? Because to me, there is something so "old-school" and incredibly pleasing from what an all-tube power section on a Bass Amp yields. Power, resonance, bloom, and PUNCH! that is to my ears unique and can only be had from power tubes (and pre-amp tubes of course) being all lit up.

So every now & then I bite the bullet, put on the back-brace and carry one of those rigs to work, and I'm always happy I did, once the set-up is complete.
Really- It's not THAT bad! Good exercise.

As far as tube life, IME pre-amp tubes last a loooong time, power tubes, depending on the useage. I would go as far as saying that if one were to play every week-end (or more) a set of power tubes could easily last a year; maybe more.

Whether an all-tube rig is a good choice for a player is an individual decision of course. Like I mentioned, the current crop of micro stuff is pretty sweet.

But my tube rigs are not gonna be for sale, any time soon.

 

[agedhorse]

So a resonant filter effect before an SS amp would work? What sort of HPF frequency and filter type?

IMO, it's not so much a HPF as a band pass filter (though with a ported cabinet the lower resonant point COULD conceivably be modeled as an underdamped HPF). This type of effect is possible with all types of amplifiers, not exclusive to tube amps. It just takes a designer who understands what's happening on the math side and designing circuitry that corresponds to the math model. Also, the filter coefficients are not purely static...

 

[agedhorse]

Could anyone tell me what a tubey sound is??
It seems that it's a warm ans massive sound, according to what I've read many times. But to me an SS amp can do that too.

That's a good question and one that there are many different answers to depending on the pkayer AND the specific amp. The most common real difference is that the low end tends to be a bit rounder and more interactive with the speaker. The other differences are common voicings used, how they sound and feel when driven hard. Then there are diffferences that the marketing world would like you to believe based on their needs...

I don't think it's a myth if you gig a lot and move your amp a lot.

I do think it's a huge and potentially profitable myth with most amps, and I have the test data to back up my opinion.

 

[Dsmnoisemaker]

So a resonant filter effect before an SS amp would work? What sort of HPF frequency and filter type?

usually SS amps have "mixed mode feedback" which does the same thing as tubes do in respect of xformer-speaker interaction.. mixed mode feedback is hard to implement in high power class D amps (because most of them are bridged amps).. in that case, a resonant 2 pole hpf (chebishev, mfb, state variable,etc) tuned to the desired "speaker resonance" (you need to check the speaker datasheet).. the Q around 4 or 5..will help with the "tube uuumph", and a slight boost on the 2-4khz zone followed by a sharp HPF will give "warmth".. Tube dynamics under distortion is a different story, and much more difficult to emulate..but you can get away with a limiter or compressor..

 

[baxter_x]

I do think it's a huge and potentially profitable myth with most amps, and I have the test data to back up my opinion.

I admit I based my point of view on my feelings, but also on the last Metallica's rig rundown where both guitar techs explain they only now use AxeFx and Matrix SS power amp.
Because "it's way more reliable, always sounds the same and can handle heavy touring, unlike tube amps"

 

[pigpen1]

I was getting a nice round tone this morning with my PBass. The EQ isn't super versatile, but I really like the frequencies they chose for the low and low mid knobs. My only complaint about the amp would be that it's kind of dry and vanilla sounding, not a whole lot of character, but that's why I have the LeBass pedal on my board.

By dry and vanilla do you mean clean?