Solid state/class d vs tube amps

[JimmyM]

Wait, what? Jimmy is not at the highest level? I'm shattered. Shattered like an aluminum cone

I'm on the lowest rung of the highest level.

 

[BadExample]

Well, I still look up to you brotha Jimmy. I'm still trying to get to the highest wrung of the lowest ladder Seems someone has greased the steps on me

 

[JimmyM]

Well, I still look up to you brotha Jimmy. I'm still trying to get to the highest wrung of the lowest ladder Seems someone has greased the steps on me

Don't I know!!! The music business is only slightly less random than professional wrestling.

 

[bobyoung53]

Sounds like my reaction when I first discovered the Mesa Subway D800! But then again I've never played through a tube amp. I just can't imagine the hassle of moving it around and constantly changing tubes. But if you can try a Mesa Subway, it's about as tubey as you're going to get from a small class D amp.

Constantly changing tubes is something like every 5 to 10 years.

 

[bobyoung53]

Tubes wear out. They do not last forever.

No, but they last a lot longer than people who have no experience with them realize. I have a 1978 Ampeg B-15S that still has the original power tubes in it and it sounds good, in fact I'm going to use it tomorrow.

 

[bobyoung53]

Nothing lasts forever....and tubes are only part of the equation. Tube amps may require a little more maintenance than solid state, but there is absolutely no need to "constantly" change tubes. Tubes can last for years. Moving a heavy amp is like moving anything else. Too heavy? Use a hand truck, or *gasp!* ask for help. To some ppl, the tone of a tube amp is so satisfying that they are willing to deal with the 1st world problems of moving heavy music gear in order to achieve it. If we find tube tone to be extremely satisfying for the relatively long period we hear it (vs the relative short period we move it) then we find ways to do it. If it is not important enough, we retreat into lighter gearspace. I use both tube amps, as well as small lightweight gear at different times. Depends on my mood, and the circumstances of the gig. I'm an old guy, and despite arthritis and a previously broken back, I will make the 1st world sacrifice of lifting a heavy load, in order to achieve my ideal tone on occasion. And yes, horror of it all, I have been known to occasionally (very rarely) change some tubes.

I'm 64 and still lugging an SVT.

 

[BadExample]

Don't I know!!! The music business is only slightly less random than professional wrestling.

At least they can tag team...

 

[bobyoung53]

Nokia phones....

Power tube wear out pretty fast..they can last a couple of years if used at home..but if used regularly at venues, they last about a year...

Not in my 50+ years of experience using all kinds of tube amps and tube stereo equipment.

 

[agedhorse]

A lot of gigs, we just don't have the board real estate. When I can, I do, but we're a large band with 5 singers and 3 horns. And we do a lot of gigs with sound techs with 16 ch boards, and we do a lot of gigs with multiple bands. Like in December, there are three bands on this one show and some of the acts that we play with have their own instruments to deal with. So it's easier said than done a lot of the time, and I just run with a DI because arguing about the mic got to be a distraction on too many gigs.

I love Judy Garland's voice. In 1989 I did a roadshow tour (CA stops) for MGM Classics of the newly restored Wizard of Oz in celebration of the 50th anniversary (back in my cinema support days). Beautiful 35mm 3 stripe Technicolor print, larger cinema venues. I used some of Judy's other music for walk-in. She had such range and emotion in her voice and the arrangements really supported her.

If you are a WOZ fan, there was a musical number that was not used in the picture and remained fairly unknown until sometime around the 50th anniv. It was quite racy for the time, has elements of what is now known as Beat, or even Hip Hop. There's a great upright bass arrangement it this song, it's mixed pretty up front and in your face (for the era). Well worth listening to IMO just for what it represented. You won't typically hear bass mixed this forward in film scores of this era because low frequencies on film were limited by the width of the sound track (minus the bias line or lines in the case of duplex tracks) on the film for variable area tracks. What's ironic is that the visual representation of the audio on modern recording software packages is essentially the same as variable area track representation on film. As dynamic range improved (finer grain films, smaller scanning slits, PV cells replacing PE cells, quieter electronics, and Dolby A NR, higher power handling speakers, subwoofers (first used with the Dolby CP-50 and CP-100 processors), it was possible to improve low frequency dynamic range as well as high frequency extension. This is why bass (kick and gtr) have grown in prominence in more modern mixes. Of course the shift to digital audio (fiorst TDS, then DTS, SDDS and Dolby Digital) made sound on film limitations a moot point.



Enough of the OT stuff, though it really is bass oriented.

 

[JimmyM]

I love Judy Garland's voice. In 1989 I did a roadshow tour (CA stops) for MGM Classics of the newly restored Wizard of Oz in celebration of the 50th anniversary (back in my cinema support days). Beautiful 35mm 3 stripe Technicolor print, larger cinema venues. I used some of Judy's other music for walk-in. She had such range and emotion in her voice and the arrangements really supported her.

If you are a WOZ fan, there was a musical number that was not used in the picture and remained fairly unknown until sometime around the 50th anniv. It was quite racy for the time, has elements of what is now known as Beat, or even Hip Hop. There's a great upright bass arrangement it this song, it's mixed pretty up front and in your face (for the era). Well worth listening to IMO just for what it represented. You won't typically hear bass mixed this forward in film scores of this era because low frequencies on film were limited by the width of the sound track (minus the bias line or lines in the case of duplex tracks) on the film for variable area tracks. What's ironic is that the visual representation of the audio on modern recording software packages is essentially the same as variable area track representation on film. As dynamic range improved (finer grain films, smaller scanning slits, PV cells replacing PE cells, quieter electronics, and Dolby A NR, higher power handling speakers, subwoofers (first used with the Dolby CP-50 and CP-100 processors), it was possible to improve low frequency dynamic range as well as high frequency extension. This is why bass (kick and gtr) have grown in prominence in more modern mixes. Of course the shift to digital audio (fiorst TDS, then DTS, SDDS and Dolby Digital) made sound on film limitations a moot point.



Enough of the OT stuff, though it really is bass oriented.

Well to steer it back toward bass and still work in the Judy talk, I guess we shouldn't complain so much about how we're heard when our ancestors just wanted to be heard and often couldn't because of technical limitations.

Will go searching for this song from WOZ tomorrow. I did love that movie, although I haven't seen it in decades.

 

[bobyoung53]

They don't wear out after a year, though. And I don't need to buy a whole new set of transistors if I drop one on the concrete.

I dropped an SVT head from the top of an 8x10 SVT cab onto a concrete sidewalk once because i was in a hurry and trying to push the whole rig down a sidewalk. All it did was dent a metal protector on the corner of the head and made a small crater in the sidewalk. If you drop one tube out a of a matched set you really don't have to replace the whole set either.

 

[bobyoung53]

Maybe there are many factors that can extend the life of power tubes..but I'm not lying.. everyone knows power tubes die after a while.. if you have a recipe for everlasting power tubes, then call me a liar..

Cheers

I think it is the opposite actually, there are many factors that can shorten the life of tubes, if they are run at correct voltages, kept somewhat cool and run cleanly most of the time they can last a very long time. I've already posted this but I have an old Ampeg amp that has the original power tubes in it and it's 39 years old and i use it quite a bit here at home. I have a fisher 400 tube receiver that is at least 50 years old with original power tubes.

 

[BadExample]

Will go searching for this song from WOZ tomorrow. I did love that movie, although I haven't seen it in decades.

That movie probably brings back more fond childhood memories for more generations than all other movies combined.

And then the sad feeling about such talent and beauty ending so early. I remember talking to my mom and her trying to explain suicide to me.

 

[bobyoung53]

I don't think it's a myth if you gig a lot and move your amp a lot.

It's a myth unless you're using an old pre master volume Marshall (which i think are the best sounding guitar amps out there) and diming the volume knob every night.

 

[agedhorse]

That movie probably brings back more fond childhood memories for more generations than all other movies combined.

And then the sad feeling about such talent and beauty ending so early. I remember talking to my mom and her trying to explain suicide to me.

Yup, sad for sure.

Years ago I worked show from Micky Rooney's tour "A Tribute to Judy Garland". So sad on many levels, a walk down memory lane. Band was great though.

 

[GreyBeard]

I played my Sunn 200S for over 25 years and never changed any tubes in it. It has sat in my shed since 1995 and is in the process of being refurbished with new caps etc. Most of the tubes are still fine. Changing out tubes on a regular basis is just tube industry hype. As long as it sounds good, it is good.

 

[Korladis]

No, I'm bummed enough about being forced to DI when I'd rather be micing Anyway, the writing is on the wall...the days of the musicians' wants and needs being considered important are coming to a close. It's long been over for bassists, and now it's hitting the entire band. Not all of us want to stick our drummers in a plexiglas cage and force them to use sample triggers, not all of us want silent stages and DI's for everything, not all of us want to hear ourselves and our bandmates out of glorified MP3 players...but the sound techs have spoken and they're winning. It won't be long before we're all forced into it, so those of us who think that sucks all the life out of the mix (as well as our enjoyment of playing music) better appreciate amps and mics while we can, because our days of enjoying it are numbered.

I'm glad that in my little musical niche, big amps and cabs still rule the show. Sound techs who regularly work the board for doom shows know not to ask for a dry DI.

I don't know what my stuff is biased at, but I'm getting pretty good tube life.


It used to be that way...I'm finding it's not always the case anymore, though. I bought a little ART mic preamp for home stuff years ago, use it fairly regularly still, and the cheapo Sovtek in it has lasted 17 years.


That much is true, especially if they don't have a prominent role in the output of the amp. Been my experience that V1 is usually the first to go in any preamp with more than one tube.

V1 has been the only preamp tube I've ever had to replace.

 

[bucephylus]

Pay close attention to the bias.....dont exceed 70% dissipation and i would go with 60 to 65% dissipation.....bias as COOL as you like the sound which is usually not less than 50% total dissipation.

FWIW, NOS (meaning old production) power tubes will last much longer than modern production.

Preamp tubes are easy to swap and usually will last a LONG time unless they go noisy etc.

Regarding your statement about old production tubes vs new production tubes:

First, what construction factor do you think mainly limits tube life?

Second, do you have data that current construction methods systematically lead to predictably shorter life?

I just wonder sometimes with all the mythology surrounding tubes whether players sometimes understand that these are just engineered devices. They aren’t some kind of mystical device that issues forth from the psychic vortices.

My $0.019 without looking into the matter is that two things can lead to premature tube degradation. One is the glass to metal seal, which allows oxygen to leak into the tube. The other is susceptibility of the internal plates to vibration. On the latter point, the musician can do a lot of good to isolate the head from the cab, especially at high volumes and with cabs having less than optimal bracing. On the former point, I’m somewhat dubious that glass to metal sealing technology has gotten worse over the years; though I suppose there could be QC issues. Is any of that kind of data known or published? Or are folks just going on experience with a few parts?

 

[GreyBeard]

Regarding your statement about old production tubes vs new production tubes:

First, what construction factor do you think mainly limits tube life?

Second, do you have data that current construction methods systematically lead to predictably shorter life?

I just wonder sometimes with all the mythology surrounding tubes whether players sometimes understand that these are just engineered devices. They aren’t some kind of mystical device that issues forth from the psychic vortices.

My $0.019 without looking into the matter is that two things can lead to premature tube degradation. One is the glass to metal seal, which allows oxygen to leak into the tube. The other is susceptibility of the internal plates to vibration. On the latter point, the musician can do a lot of good to isolate the head from the cab, especially at high volumes and with cabs having less than optimal bracing. On the former point, I’m somewhat dubious that glass to metal sealing technology has gotten worse over the years; though I suppose there could be QC issues. Is any of that kind of data known or published? Or are folks just going on experience with a few parts?

I doubt that there is data confirming predictable shorter tube life. If tubes fail prematurely under normal usage it is probably due to sloppy QC.

 

[MrLenny1]

You have to weed them out by gigging them.
I went from a hybrid amp to a Class D TC Rh450
and a GK MB 500 also. I'm stuck on the TC but I do
like the GK for what it is.
Happy hunting.