That assertion hasn't had a basis from the time I first heard it more than fifty years ago through today.
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Some Shade from Ron Carter
- Thread starter Dr. Cheese
- Start date
Pardon me if my desire to elucidate insults you, but when Ron Carter unfairly maligns an entire instrument with a sweeping and inaccurate statement, the first and most logical response could ter is to cite the fact that there are players beating him at his own game (improvisational jazz) with an electric bass.
But to state names is purely point scoring.
How many bassists could make some off the wall statement and start an eleven page, and counting, talkbass thread?
Repetitive funk is repetitive. So is repetitive pop, repetitive rock and so on. Non-repetitive work in any of those genres is not. As I seriously doubt that Carter was talking about ALL electric bass work...
Not really seeing high horse.
I interpreted Mr. Carter's statement based on years of reading his interviews where I thought he sounded condescending. The fact that he cited forty or fifty year old music sounded indeed, to me, like a man talking about something he had not really listened to.
My knowledge of acoustic Jazz is not as great as yours, but I have and read enough to know Ron Carter is super accomplished. I never posted anything suggested any lack of ability on his part. His bass guitar tracks were not outstanding, but were certainly very competent. Ultimately, he decided to focus on his first love, and certainly respect his choice.
It was insightful to hear him say that the skill level of dedicated bassists caused him to focus acoustic exclusively.
Move along, nothing to see here.
Ron Carter earns world record as the most recorded jazz bassist in history
At the end of the day we both agreed on one thing "opinion". "I feel" talent like Ron and Jaco cannot be taught and they would have excelled on any instrument they would have started playing ( assuming they started on a different instrument ). Jaco could play the drums as well as piano and given enough time would have been equally as good on said instruments. "I" believe some are just hardwired for music, wish I was. I respect your opinion. If we all agreed around here it would get boring fast, so good on you for "your" opinionWith all due respect...
This is pretty good summation of almost everything wrong with this thread. Ignorance of Carter's cv is key... unless you're actually aware of his traditional jazz roots and still don't get what he does. And that's not all he does.
A Bass-Off between Carter and Jaco?
Assumptions abound based on who knows what. Jaco would've smoked on upright is right up there with he could play ANYTHING musically, which is pretty ridiculous if you really think about it. EB and upright are two very different instruments. Do most even know that?
There are so many genres I never heard Jaco touch but people assume he would master because hell, he was Jaco. Like Jaco could smoke an actual Zydeco bassist. Jaco's R&B work was never as phenomenal IMO as most fans thought, many of whom weren't even steeped in the genre to begin with. Imagine Rocco Prestia, who had a far more distinctive style in that genre, on "Come On, Come Over". I have.
So in their minds speed trumps substance and Jaco wins again. I'm not slagging on Jaco. He wasn't magic. And Carter isn't as low as some of the opinions reflect here.
Is there another way to take the original quote? For many here that seems to be a resounding no. So... RC must've insulted all bassplayers so the angry responses are justified. Just defending my instrument... but ask yourselves why does it need defending in the first place? That would likely start with your own low opinion. ijs
It's not surprising, it's actually kind of sad how much baggage many seem to carry around about this instrument. If it were me I'd really look into that.
I seriously doubt that anything an 80+ year old Ron Carter said was meant to be edgy. That was far more likely in the ear of the beholder. Instead I have a crazy take on it... he was simply giving his opinion. Should he massage his opinion to be more palatable to sensitive EBers? Folks should try reading it without the baggage. If it couldn't possibly be taken the way I and some others have read it, cool.
No offense... by mentioning other bassists you've already "stooped". Naming them would just be expanding on that.
I'm not a big Wynton Marsalis fan, I do recognize his accomplishments. As far as what Jazz has always been about... seriously?
Jazz was never about one thing or one goal. But people tend to act like that and if you really think about it, your hard stance is no better or worse than Wynton's. Just as apparently rigid.
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Cool.
Having seen several accomplished musicians struggle on secondary instruments, by their own admission, I will not assume anything about a transference of their talent. I've heard Jaco do the Teen Town groove on drums and while he's competent on keys I don't think he approached his bass level on either one. I could be wrong but I wouldn't assume what he could do.
But people do and I really have no idea why. Because I know how difficult that can be. Just like assuming they could excel at any kind of music, with absolutely nothing to base that on besides wishful thinking and possibly blinding admiration. The funny thing again is that they could sound like they're killing in a genre... if you don't really know what authentic sounds or feels like. Reggae is a great test genre.
On the flip side I know and know of multi-instrumentalists who are world class on several disparate instrumental platforms... Stevie Wonder and Jacob Collier come to mind. They are rare. Assuming Jaco or Ron Carter could do the same is a hell of a leap IMO.
Who did Ron Carter unfairly malign? I've read the quote several times and I still don't get the offense. I would like to know since he maligned an entire instrument, I hate missing a good maligning.
Did you actually see him referring to ALL electric bassists? I didn't. I'm pretty sure that even at his age he knows that all electric bassists don't play static basslines. Hell, ALL of James Brown's basslines weren't static. SOME were. I would think that he was referring to the ones that were. Not the ones that weren't.
Seriously, what the heck has you guy so worked up about what he actually said?
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Sometimes the truth can seem condescending. Particularly depending on where you are in the journey.
As you can probably guess I talk music alot IRL. I often sit down with bassists who pick my brain about things I'm doing, things that I've figured out over time. I explain my process and on rare occasions I get the funniest pushback when asked how I do something that they haven't figured out how do to yet:
"Are you saying I can't play?".
My first thought is: "Did you?".
I've been listening to Carter play and speak most likely for as long as you if not longer. Much like Anthony Jackson, I didn't see him as arrogant or condescending. I saw him as accomplished with life experiences and opinions based on them. So he never offended me. I didn't feel like I nor my instrument were being slighted. As I asked elsewhere, what am I missing? If you're secure in your instrument and abilities, angst shouldn't be a problem.
Anthony Jackson wrote that he didn't care for BAD slapping*... and people got butthurt because in their collective minds that turned into ANY slapping, which he clearly did not write. Twenty years later people continue to misquote him. Sadly that's how this often works, like a bad version of the telephone game. These guys speak specifically, it would be nice if more people considered that but hey, let's be real.
*bad slapping back in the day was a real thing, particularly forcing minor pentatonic licks over everything, structure be damned.
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Sometimes the truth can seem condescending. Particularly depending on where you are in the journey.
As you can probably guess I talk music alot IRL. I often sit down with bassists who pick my brain about things I'm doing, things that I've figured ut over timer. I explain my process and on rare occassions I get the funniest pushback when asked how I do something that they haven't figured out how do to yet:
"Are you saying I can't play?".
My first thought is: "Did you?".
I've been listening to Carter play and speak most likely for as long as you if not longer. Much like Anthony Jackson, I didn't see him as arrogant or condescending. I saw him as accomplished with life experiences and opinions based on them. So he never offended me. I didn't feel like I nor my instrument were being slighted. As I asked elsewhere, what am I missing? If you're secure in your instrument and abilities, angst shouldn't be a problem.
Anthony Jackson wrote that he didn't care for BAD slapping*... and people got butthurt because in their collective minds that turned into ANY slapping, which he clearly did not write. Twenty years later people continue to misquote him. Sadly that's how this often works, like a bad version of the telephone game. These guys speak specifically, it would be nice if more people considered that but hey, let's be real.
*bad slapping back in the day was a real thing, particularly forcing minor pentatonic licks over everything, structure be damned.
I don't think it was quite the same as AJ, but I can see why you see a parallel. AJ had a style he had developed, but slapping became the rage. AJ slapped a bit, but he decided it was not for him. That is similar to Ron Carter's experience with the bass guitar. I think being a bass guitarist with vision made AJ outspoken, but not condescending.
Nothing Ron Carter said made me feel bad or self conscious, I know that Ron Carter is a legend, it is a given he can outplay me. To be honest, at this point in my life, I am at peace with where I am and especially where I am trying to go. There are so many people who humble me, I just try to learn what I can and do the best I can.
I know I have more enthusiasm than ability.
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I know Ron personally. He's not the guy as many of you have described him. So Awfull comments here from totally undeducated people. wow.
Good to know. That comment like some others I have read can be taken at face value or it could be taken as sarcasm, without being in front of the person saying it it's hard to tell. Body language is most effective in communicating what you're hearing. When you're reading it that's lost, it could be taken either way.
As I said I don't know the man, I respect his work and his dedication. I always strive for succinct communication that won't be misunderstood. I don't think however that you can pigeonhole upright in jazz as it's used for so many different styles and the same could be said for electric bass.
I would go as far as saying yes, some pop music is repetitive but we don't all play pop music mate, some of us go so far afield from that on electric that it could be considered as spontaneous and inventive as anything that Mr Carter has played.
Now if you want to work a lot you may have to play repetitive lines that you're not completely enamoured with but they pay the bills or you may be in a position to play whatever you please and people hire you to do that, it's not really set in concrete is it?
So you see we all have an opinion and we're free to express it here without prejudice or judgement so I'm glad you chimed in because you know the man personally and I understand from what you're saying that Mr Carter would not disparage electric bass players and is merely highlighting what is in his mind the difference between what he is doing in jazz and what the pop world is doing.
Anthony Jackson wrote that he didn't care for BAD slapping*... and people got butthurt because in their collective minds that turned into ANY slapping, which he clearly did not write. Twenty years later people continue to misquote him. Sadly that's how this often works, like a bad version of the telephone game. These guys speak specifically, it would be nice if more people considered that but hey, let's be real.
*bad slapping back in the day was a real thing, particularly forcing minor pentatonic licks over everything, structure be damned.
Just on this point I distinctly remember his Bass Player article, but not so much what his said but the picture that accompanied it. It was a ketchup bottle with a picture of a thumb on the label. I guess he felt that like ketchup, slapping was used to spice up, or cover up some bland and tasteless music. (And maybe that some people put it on everything.)
IIRC the ketchup metaphor was about overuse. It had nothing to do with the quality of the underlying music... some might be fine, too much could ruin things.
He didn't seem to have a problem with Marcus Miller, who played on some of the same projects. He held him up as an example of what he wasn't talking about.
