Some Shade from Ron Carter

[Brad Johnson]

Good to know. That comment like some others I have read can be taken at face value or it could be taken as sarcasm, without being in front of the person saying it it's hard to tell. Body language is most effective in communicating what you're hearing. When you're reading it that's lost, it could be taken either way.

As I said I don't know the man, I respect his work and his dedication. I always strive for succinct communication that won't be misunderstood. I don't think however that you can pigeonhole upright in jazz as it's used for so many different styles and the same could be said for electric bass.

I would go as far as saying yes, some pop music is repetitive but we don't all play pop music mate, some of us go so far afield from that on electric that it could be considered as spontaneous and inventive as anything that Mr Carter has played.

Now if you want to work a lot you may have to play repetitive lines that you're not completely enamoured with but they pay the bills or you may be in a position to play whatever you please and people hire you to do that, it's not really set in concrete is it?

So you see we all have an opinion and we're free to express it here without prejudice or judgement so I'm glad you chimed in because you know the man personally and I understand from what you're saying that Mr Carter would not disparage electric bass players and is merely highlighting what is in his mind the difference between what he is doing in jazz and what the pop world is doing.

"Some" of the pop world. People keep reading it as if he's talking about ALL electric bassists.

 

[Dr. Cheese]

I know Ron personally. He's not the guy as many of you have described him. So Awfull comments here from totally undeducated people. wow.

Do you have zero opinions about public figures you have never met? One thing about being a public figure is that you will be judged by what you say. Everyone will not get to meet and know you.

 

[ElMon]

Do you have zero opinions about public figures you have never met? One thing about being a public figure is that you will be judged by what you say. Everyone will not get to meet and know you.

Especially to call someone uneducated ... considering that type of position is one big logical fallacy: "X person's opinions are automatically more valid because they're more successful than you".

edit note: I used 'is' instead of 'are', so there ya go. I'm not any better.

 

[Samatza]

"Some" of the pop world. People keep reading it as if he's talking about ALL electric bassists.

I agree with you but in the interview he does say "the difference between their job and our job" and this kind of puts the reader in one camp or the other. I know he probably didn't mean it this way but from reading that you could get the impression that he did, unfortunately some people will interpret it that way.
That's why I made the comment about reading vs. seeing the interview, the body language would have easily clarified his intended meaning.

 

[Brad Johnson]

I agree with you but in the interview he does say "the difference between their job and our job" and this kind of puts the reader in one camp or the other. I know he probably didn't mean it this way but from reading that you could get the impression that he did, unfortunately some people will interpret it that way.
That's why I made the comment about reading vs. seeing the interview, the body language would have easily clarified his intended meaning.

It might put SOME readers into a camp, it didn't have that effect on me possibly because I sought no offense to begin with.

Look even earlier in the quote:
"I admire an electric bass players ability...".

This is where I think the reading gets selective, right off the bat. If i say I admire a plumber's ability to show buttcrack, am i saying that ALL plumbers do it? Nope. The line I quoted does not say "all" but people are "reading" that word anyway instead of "an". He talked about upright bassists too, I wonder if that offended Tommy Smothers?

 

[Samatza]

It might put SOME readers into a camp, it didn't have that effect on me possibly because I sought no offense to begin with.

Look even earlier in the quote:
"I admire an electric bass players ability...".

This is where I think the reading gets selective, right off the bat. If i say i admire a plumber's ability to show buttcrack, am i saying that ALL plumbers do it? Nope. The line I quoted does not say "all" but people are "reading" that word anyway instead of "an". He talked about upright bassists too, I wonder if that offended Tommy Smothers?

Nice analogy! Please don't think I took any offence from this comment or Mr Carter's. Now I can't get that image out of my head...

 

[Brad Johnson]

Do you have zero opinions about public figures you have never met? One thing about being a public figure is that you will be judged by what you say. Everyone will not get to meet and know you.

And quite often, as I feel is the case here, the baggage of the readers can cloud things. No matter how specifically you speak, some folks will see what they want to see.

I have a friend who tends to speak in ABSOLUTES and when I disagree he says that I'm the one splitting hairs. Then even he has to admit that the absolute was indeed problematic. It's no different with celebrities. In this case there was no absolute but apparently because some want to think the thoughts came from a dismissive place they became dismissive... in spite of the actual words.

Again, asking if there's another way that I could interpret words is a great way to avoid this type of thing. But that can take extra time...

 

[Brad Johnson]

Nice analogy! Please don't think I took any offence from this comment or Mr Carter's. Now I can't get that image out of my head...

I didn't. It's all good.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Especially to call someone uneducated ... considering that type of position is one big logical fallacy: "X person's opinions are automatically more valid because they're more successful than you".

edit note: I used 'is' instead of 'are', so there ya go. I'm not any better.

William Shockley immediately comes to mind when I think of highly educated folks who say idiotic things... with conviction.

 

[DJ Bebop]

 

[ElMon]

William Shockley immediately comes to mind when I think of highly educated folks who say idiotic things... with conviction.

I commit several a week (not on Talkbass of course) to maintain familiarity.

 

[Wisebass]

Hi Doc

Wow thread! Some very cool posts!

I can't argue Funk isn't repetitive; it's just that the sort of Funk he is taking about is passé.

I think he took Funk just as an example for non Jazz music that is mostly played on electric bass.

The difference between their job and our job….

Here he starts to compare the job of a popular music player with a Jazz player.


our job, as the upright player, is that our lines must contain something fresh and new every chorus. I resent that pressure, but i do it because it's part of the job.

That' s true! That' s the role a jazz musician has.


….somewhere else in the next chorus or somewhere else in the next tune, or somewhere else in the next night.

Changing given stuctures and to reorganize them while playing => Jazz

Our job is to plant a seed to make it grow. It seems to me that their job (electric bass players) is to plant a seed and make sure it doesn't go past a certain height."

When he means, that we (most electric players) don' t have the chance to change a song on stage

and to turn it into something completely different, that we play tomorrow night…

Is he wrong?

I don' t take offence! ​

Ask TB about changing cover songs! (better not, wars have been raging! )

I can understand every bassplayer with his skill level, when he says that pop is boring. (which he doesn 't!)

We're all intellectuals here. Every opinion makes us angry.

That' s not true!

But I am not angry!


may the bass be with you

Wise(b)ass

 

[Wisebass]

Yep!

Wise

 

[Dr. Cheese]

Hi Doc

Wow thread! Some very cool posts!



I think he took Funk just as an example for non Jazz music that is mostly played on electric bass.

The difference between their job and our job….

Here he starts to compare the job of a popular music player with a Jazz player.


our job, as the upright player, is that our lines must contain something fresh and new every chorus. I resent that pressure, but i do it because it's part of the job.

That' s true! That' s the role a jazz musician has.


….somewhere else in the next chorus or somewhere else in the next tune, or somewhere else in the next night.

Changing given stuctures and to reorganize them while playing => Jazz

Our job is to plant a seed to make it grow. It seems to me that their job (electric bass players) is to plant a seed and make sure it doesn't go past a certain height."

When he means, that we (most electric players) don' t have the chance to change a song on stage

and to turn it into something completely different, that we play tomorrow night…

Is he wrong?

I don' t take offence! ​

Ask TB about changing cover songs! (better not, wars have been raging! )

I can understand every bassplayer with his skill level, when he says that pop is boring. (wich he doesn 't!)



That' s not true!

But I am not angry!


may the bass be with you

Wise(b)ass

To be frank, I am over this conversation even though I started it. At the time I read it, I thought it was a bit condescending. Many did not see it that way. I admit I judged what he said partially by things I heard him say thirty or thirty-five years ago. At the end of the day, he is one of the greats, and we all have a right to our opinions.

 

[consectaneus]

Ron Carter is way over my head and he is one of the greats so I don't know if this is even applicable, but I read that James Brown insisted on repetitive riffs and I find the cumulative effect hypnotic which is one of the points of that type of music. I will go on a limb and say that funk music hits us at an elemental physical level, and the sort of Jazz Mr. Carter is talking about is more cerebral. Both have their place. Some definitely do make a qualitative judgment, but I see them as different things requiring different tools and approaches.

 

[DJ Bebop]

Ron Carter is way over my head and he is one of the greats so I don't know if this is even applicable, but I read that James Brown insisted on repetitive riffs and I find the cumulative effect hypnotic which is one of the points of that type of music. I will go on a limb and say that funk music hits us at an elemental physical level, and the sort of Jazz Mr. Carter is talking about is more cerebral. Both have their place. Some definitely do make a qualitative judgment, but I see them as different things requiring different tools and approaches.

Soul on Top - Wikipedia

 

[cnltb]

Soul on Top - Wikipedia

Is the message of this post 'Ray Brown should have stuck to plying Jazz' ?

 

[DJ Bebop]

Is the message of this post 'Ray Brown should have stuck to plying Jazz' ?

 

[cnltb]

Seriously though...How did that ever get released?

 

[teh-slb]

Seriously though...How did that ever get released?

The isolated excerpt from "Soul on Top"? Call me crazy, but I actually liked (parts of) it