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Some Shade from Ron Carter

#102
Dr. Cheese said:


I can't argue Funk isn't repetitive; it's just that the sort of Funk he is taking about is passé. A lot of younger bass guitarists in Gospel and others genres are playing in more Jamerson inspired approach where basslines constantly evolve. The great irony was that when Carter was a young man, Jamerson, a fellow Detroit native, was demonstrating every day on the radio just how free flowing basslines in Pop music could be if he had gotten off his high horse and really listened.
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When I was in a jazz band , some admirers totally eschewed my electric bass. When we recorded , same bunch lauded my use of string bass. When I told them for that recording I chose electric and adjusted EQ to sound more like my string bass , they went away cussing and spitting.

Just another purist snob.

I sold my string basses long ago and IF I just Had to have one; it would be an EUB as string basses are virtually mute in Band context unless miked-out and thus imho...Electric .....
 
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#103
Dr. Cheese said:
Ron Carter is a great musician. That he can play electric well when he wants to is no surprise. I don't think he is jealous of other players, I think he resents bass guitar taking over territory that he would rather see covered by string bass.
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Well…it's good to want things. ;):laugh:

Funny thing is I started on string bass playing jazz. Loved the instrument. Still do. But I couldn't take the string bass and jazz crowd. That laid back arrogance really started to grate on me after awhile. Here were these mostly unknowns without a pot to piss in, and who did nothing but play music (usually in just a single genre) walking around with a superiority complex that would put a young punk junk bond dealer in the 80s to shame.

I found my people in the blues and rock world.

If I want religion I'll go to church. Not set up an altar to myself because I know what "real" music is.
 
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#104
I'd say it is more of a genre thing than electric vs. upright. Yes, many of the upright player's come from jazz background - a style in which improvisation is one of the most prominent aspects - thus the lines might evolve more, where as the electric bass we hear more in pop music which is also known as rhytmic/repetitive. But that's only generalization. Listen to some drum and bass or acid jazz like the band Red Snapper (one of my favorite bands) and you'll hear Ali Friend playing an upright in a very repetitive (and IMO awesome) manner. On the other hand we got Jamerson and Jaco on electric..
 
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#105
Dr. Cheese said:


I can't argue Funk isn't repetitive; it's just that the sort of Funk he is taking about is passé. A lot of younger bass guitarists in Gospel and others genres are playing in more Jamerson inspired approach where basslines constantly evolve. The great irony was that when Carter was a young man, Jamerson, a fellow Detroit native, was demonstrating every day on the radio just how free flowing basslines in Pop music could be if he had gotten off his high horse and really listened.
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First of all... I love Ron Carter's playing. One of my all time favorites. Second of all, I can't say that he's not mostly right! Or at least, I'm certainly guilty as charged. But you're absolutely right about Jamerson. I was just listening to some of his isolated bass lines. My Gawd, he was good. Of course, he was coming from a jazz/upright background, and he brought that training with him. But that's why he's probably my favorite pop/rock bassist. I also love Paul McCartney's bass lines, and while they're more repetitive than Jamerson's, McCartney also changes it up just a bit throughout the song, which does add a lot. I need to work on that!
 
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#106
I think Ron Carter's career is a good example of being in right place at the right time. I don't love his playing outside of Miles' second quintet. He doesn't have a sound/groove/soloing identity that I personally connect with, but I appreciate where his contributions fit through the history/pantheon of jazz music. To his credit, he has a very recognizable musical voice, and you always know "it's him" when you put a record on.

There are those that seem to be very comfortable with the skin they are in such as Ray Brown, Rufus Reid, John Clayton, Dave Holland, etc. and they give very freely in interviews and educational settings. There are others, that for some reason, find the need to maintain their status by making comments such as the ones in the original post.

If you are truly serving the music from an informed and sympathetic place, the instrument you play and the genre become irrelevant, and if, in service of the music, your part is a single one bar repetitive phrase, that comes with its own challenges and skill set.
 
#107
Food for thought:

-- Music for dancing is often repetitive and the actual rhythm (to support the footwork) is what is most important.

-- Jamerson played plenty of very repetitive parts...check out his work with Jr. Walker and the AllStars.

-- There are plenty of jazz tunes with repetitive lines, at least during the heads if not the entire tune.

-- There is nothing wrong with repetitive lines when that is what really works for the song. If a song grooves like hell and I'm just slamming an open E for ten minutes I could care less.

-- If the style of music you play makes you feel like you are constrained in what you are allowed to play, go play another style that gives you more freedom.

BTW This is Ron Carter on bass (also Billy Cobham on drums, just not playing like what made him famous)

 
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#110
jerry said:
Just like Quincy Jones and other cats from a different era, I give Carter a pass, props and tons of respect for such a huge body of great work.
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Amen. Speak No Evil, The Real McCoy, Maiden Voyage, Miles Smiles, and Alone Together are among my absolute fave recordings of all time. The man is an artist of the highest caliber.

I might be biased.

:D
 
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#111
With all due respect to a great player, when I hear remarks like my response is always "bass is not just one thing." Bass can do many things, and all are valid with their specific context. If not, then the bass would not even be there. So a repetitive bass line is not a bad thing because it serves it's purpose just as he proposes he is doing with an upright bass.
 
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#113
BargeOn said:
Feeling a bit defensive today are we? Maybe it's that thread on our collective inferiority complex.

I'm surprised his comment generated so much hostility. Didn't believe him in the very first line of that quote? He didn't trash any one, any style or EBs in general. He picked an example of a type of playing directly opposite to his to highlight the difference. He noted the genuine difficulty of holding a line in that style of play and making it sound good . And it is difficult, as folks here know. He didn't try to generalize about all types of music or all styles of play, ya'll would have really jumped on him for that.

He was complementary of funk and some what deferential of his preferred genre. Overall unassuming and fair minded I thought.
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Not really - his remarks were snide and derogatory as far as I can see - love him to try to play anything from dream theater or Iron Maiden. while categorizing electric bass players as being monotonous players - he needs to realize that many play genres that are not so - Gary Willis and snarky puppy come to mind.

Many upright players do the rockabilly thing or country and fit more into his electric mold than do many slab players. Overall - anyone that makes sweeping statements like that is opening themselves to criticism.
 
#114
Dr. Cheese said:


I can't argue Funk isn't repetitive; it's just that the sort of Funk he is taking about is passé. A lot of younger bass guitarists in Gospel and others genres are playing in more Jamerson inspired approach where basslines constantly evolve. The great irony was that when Carter was a young man, Jamerson, a fellow Detroit native, was demonstrating every day on the radio just how free flowing basslines in Pop music could be if he had gotten off his high horse and really listened.
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Lol, dude sounds miserable.
 
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#118
Please, that's a lot of hot air coming from someone whose preferred genre has completely lost its way over the last 30 years. Seriously, is there anything new going on in the jazz world? Of course, I pay little to no attention, but I know the answer. I'm not bashing Ron, jazz purists have always had this elitist attitude and probably always will. I couldn't care less how many notes he plays and if he never plays the same song the same way twice. Maybe if the song was better to begin with, he wouldn't have to do that.
 
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